What Does an Enterprise Business Agility Coach ACTUALLY Do?
Discover the crucial role of Enterprise Business Agility Coaches in transforming organizations! In this episode, we dive deep into:
- How an Enterprise Coach differs from other Coaches
- Working with C-suite executives to drive organizational change
- Measuring culture and transformation success
- Navigating resistance from middle management
- Improving time-to-market and financial outcomes💡
Perfect for: Product leaders, transformation coaches, executives, and anyone interested in scaling a business or running a large-scale program.
#AgileTransformation #BusinessAgility #ProductLeadership #OrganizationalChange #AgileCoaching #EnterpriseBusiness #ProductManagement #Leadership
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welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast, where Enterprise Business Agility Coach Om Patel and Product Manager Brian Orlando argue about product management, leadership, and business agility, so you don't have to. we're on the bomb run right now. Up to episode 200, at this point, like there are no episodes to waste anymore. I want to get a whole bunch of stuff out of my system and off of my plate. I haven't said that in a long time. Yeah, there's not like, I try not to, I try to edit out like corporate corporate speak whenever it comes up in the podcast, but I liked that one. That one's that one's. Yeah, I want to get it off my plate before we get to episode 200. And one of them is what in the heck is an enterprise business agility coach and what did they do? And, and I figured you're the perfect person because you in fact are an enterprise business agility coach. And we've been meaning to do this one for a while. So this is, this is the time. So I assume that it's different from an agile coach or a scrum master. It is different. I mean, there are some obvious differences, some not so obvious differences. So we'll start with the obvious differences, right? If you're a Scrum Master, you're an Agile Coach, you're pretty much focused at the team level. And your focus is mainly around Agile practices. To make sure that the teams are adopting Agile practices. So the difference between that and an enterprise business agility coach is that they're making sure that agile ways of working are being looked at and adopted across the organization that that's different from agile with a capital A, right, which is You know, are the teams doing refinement? Are they estimating that's part and parcel of it perhaps, but when you're looking at other domains of the business, like finance or HR or legal they're not developing code, right? But they still need to instill agility in their ways of working. So that's the biggest difference I'd say. Your focus is slightly different, right? I was at a networking event recently. Oh no, we were both at a networking event recently. And this came up of like, Oh, you're, you know, you were in QA and you moved to product management. I said, yeah, well, part of my moving to product management was when I realized very few of the problems are solvable at the development team level. In corporate America. Yeah. Like in tech companies, you know, very, very few of the problems and like an agile coach, scrum master, whatever can help. At the team level. But if you have these like the corrosive influence at a management level or executive level, like that stuff just filters down and just sabotages everything at the team level. And there's really very little you can do. You know, you do the best you can, obviously for your customers or whatever. But I mean, if you really have somebody that doesn't, that doesn't have empathy for the customers or doesn't use the organizational design tool. To aid the teams, use it against the teams. Like, you know, you've got to fix that upstream. Exactly. So, you know, at that point, you're not really looking at team dysfunction. You're looking, you're facing challenges in the three P's that the people, the processes and the politics. So I wrote down some notes before we started about an enterprise coach and what they do. Some of the things I wrote down, these are just like high level things that I wrote down. I wrote works directly with the C suite to align transformation of the whole business. Now the business could be, Thousands of employees. So like, I, I sort of think if, if, if you're going to be an enterprise coach and you're going to be effective, I guess you could have an enterprise coach at a program level, I guess, assuming your program is like hundreds of employees or whatever, but I sort of think of the enterprise coach sitting. Almost like a temporary person sitting with the C suite trying to say, Hey, how can we treat the different functions of our organization more like. smaller startups or quicker, you know what I mean? Quicker responding entities basically. And then to keep them accountable to be like, no, this is an important thing. We really need to do this. And keep them on it, you know? Yeah, I agree with that. I think it is it is critical to have the C suites here because at the end of the day, you're not going to succeed, you know, trying to get around enterprise agility without having backing from the beginning at the very top. And, and also remember, they themselves didn't really get up there by working in agile ways. So your, your challenges are kind of multifold here, right? You, you've got to go and. So they need to be able to tackle their mindset first and express how they could be working themselves in an agile way. And the benefits so early proof of concept with them. With their reforms. Right. So you can work with them and say, this is how you're going to get. Through all of this a lot faster. Your decision making time cycle is reduced substantially, right? Those kinds of things you got to make it happen for them. So yeah to your point making them accountable. Absolutely you know, I usually run a Kanban board with them and regular touch points and Soon, they get to the point where they'll say oh dear I didn't get to doing that and I know I'm gonna call me out on it. Usually executives have like this executive assistant kind of role or like a, like some organization will have like a chief of staff type of role. Like this seems very close to, to one of those roles, like a chief of staff, but like a chief of staff for the purpose of making sure that people are evolving their ways of working. Throughout the organization, especially again, especially in organizations that are like like Several smaller companies joined together under an umbrella type of corporation. Sorry, not not umbrella corporation Like a holding company. Yeah, I think in those situations what you see though is Those roles that you mentioned, the chief of staff, those kinds of roles, people, chief people person, those kinds of roles, they do talk about ways of working, they talk about ways of ensuring that people, you know, have a good working environment, they don't burn out, etc. On the day to day level, that mind shift off working in a way where decisions air faster. You're fostering a culture of risk, risk taking measured risk taking experimentation, right? Continuous improvement. I haven't found that all that pervasive in those environments. So again, those are your Customers as a, as an enterprise coach, so you've got to get with them. I just basically say they're not any different than anybody else. That's at the board level, the C suite, right? So they're, they're also, you know, they're going to own work for themselves too, on the on the Kanba board. Normally we do on the arguing agile podcast We'll do like a section on pros and cons or you know for is and against and stuff like that Like the main arguments against are like, well, it like, do we have the money It is difficult to quantify the ROI in hiring this person and even when I'm not hiring a permanent employee. To be on my staff or, you know, sit with the C suite or a set working for the CEO or somebody, right. That, that initial pushback from the CFO of like, well, what is the ROI of hiring an enterprise coach to help us? That's a great point. I mean, so one of the things you have to do when you go in there is to figure out where they're hurting. What is the impact of delayed decision making? Right? And then you don't just say, well, you know, these types of decisions are taking anywhere between two to four months. You've got to quantify that in terms that the CFO understands, which is dollars. Right? Dollars lost, opportunity cost those kinds of measures. If you can do that, then I think you'll have a much easier time discussing ROI. Because you're right, ROI on something like this isn't immediately you know, it's not immediately perceptible, right? You have to wait a little bit. Initially, people will see that their performance will go down a bit because they're learning a new way of working. So it will go down a bit. Then it will go back up again and it will surpass where they were. So you have to convince the CFO, anybody at the C suite that they're in it for at least as long as it takes to get the, the, the results, the initial results, right? But to do that, you have to focus on where they're hurting the most now. Right. would it not also be Difficult to give them this extrapolation if they are only looking in a shorter term, like if they're only looking quarter to quarter and you're, you're trying to say like, well, like I, as the enterprise business agility coach I'm looking to make a permanent change to the way your organization works with the sub organizations that are part of it. Like the, you know, the hierarchy or whatever. But I'm looking to make a permanent change. So you can't measure a permanent change over the next six weeks or whatever. You need to look at the next six years to measure this permanent change. And if they don't have a baseline of the previous two years , be just because they're not finance doesn't think that way or the business units don't think that way. They're just trying to survive for another three months. Like how do you shift them into saying like, Hey, Let's look at a longer term. I think you do that by looking at The one of the top pain points they have and figuring out what it's costing them Whether it's delayed time in decision making, whether it's delayed time to market, right? And then you make small changes; you're not gonna be able to make a permanent change quickly here. It's just, there's no appetite for that because they don't see that they see that as very risk laden. So make a small change. Measure it and then say, if we can do this in a few weeks, what can we do in a few months? that's how I would position that. So effectively what you're doing is taking a small area that you know is hurting a lot and almost like piloting this stuff, right? And showing them early results. And that becomes a showcase for you that you can illustrate, especially those that are dragging their feet. I'm not sure if this stuff is going to work, right? You can prove that with hard numbers that it actually works over a shorter period of time. That's subjective, but it could be anywhere from a few weeks to a couple of months to two, three months, a quarter, right? You should be able to tell in a quarter whether those things are making a difference or not. A lot of people will say you can't measure culture, but in, in, in episode one, I probably should stop and figure out what the episode was. It was either one 89 or one 90. It was when we were talking about having disagreements with your engineering leadership. That was one of the podcasts and in that podcast, we talked about the book accelerate and in accelerate, they kind of dispelled the myth that you like, that you can't measure culture. They said, no, you absolutely. Can measure culture you can do surveys and like a lot of people will like at that point Like things start breaking in. I was like, oh, I don't want to do a survey. It's too difficult Like I don't I don't even know how to write a survey. So there's not bias involved There's some skill involved basically in writing a survey. But what they said was you absolutely can measure culture But you need to come up with a survey. So is it your experience that maybe when you enter, you want to measure the culture. And then when you're, you know, whatever it's six months, three months, I don't know what the, what the right checking cadence is to keep measuring the culture so that you can give your c level leadership, some kind of unbiased, unfiltered, like, those are two things, right? Unbiased and unfiltered, because those are two things that I feel, if you're an outsider, they're really paying you for is unbiased and unfiltered. Right. Because I feel the role of a C level executive, like, everything is filtered by somebody's Bias or outlook or hopes or dreams or whatever. Yeah. They've got to be able to sort out the wheat from the shaft. So there is you know, there is a technique where you can actually baseline where the organization's at in terms of their agility or rigidity, right? If you can baseline that and yes, surveys are just one mechanism. There are other mechanisms. Um, And You then put that away, right? It's worth nothing. It's a snapshot in time, but it's something you're going to dust off in a few weeks and redo the same exact baselining and put them side by side. I like to overlay those things so you can see, for example, you can do these hub and spoke type of diagrams, right? On different elements. Let's say you have five elements. So you have five It's like a spider gram is what I call it colloquially, but so you can see on a scale of one to five where everybody is based on the survey. Let's say there are threes. Next time you do it on some of those folks, they may go up to fours. That shows progress, right? And depending on the team. So when I say that, what I mean is IT and people like that, that they kind of know this agile way of working, but maybe legal doesn't. So depending on what team you have, That delta going from 3 to 4, it might only go from 3 to 3. 5. Sure. But that is a real change. Otherwise, those 3s in this example, they're very hard to move. So if you can move it even half a point, let's say in a month or two months, that's real progress. You can show that, right? So, I mean, I would do it that way. You know, the, the other thing that we talk about in Transformations of any kind of like whether we're, whether we're old school and we talk about agile transformations or whether we're, talking about product operating model Regardless of what it is, everybody still agrees you need like strong executive sponsorship. Yeah. I'm talking from the top, the CEO basically needs to say this is extremely important. It's existential to us as an organization to be able to respond quickly to what customers ask for and to turn around, and like, they're, they're kind of tapping you as the executive coach to say, Hey, go out at the orgs, make sure they're supported, make sure they understand this important, like that, that strong executive sponsorship. I don't feel it can come from. Again, this is just my personal experience. But if it's not the CEO, I don't think anybody else can replace that role. I don't think the C O O can say, or the CTO can say, Oh, only people under my branch in the organization, all the development teams, all the people that I directly supervise. They're going to be super agile, but then the HR folks are all waterfall. And the finance people are all silo. And you don't get to talk to the HR people are all silo. You don't get to talk to these people. You know what I mean? You got to go through me or whatever barriers. So like you can't have agility and bubbles in the organization because they'll, they'll again, just my experience, everybody else beat me up in the comments if you want to, because that bubble will survive and thrive. As long as that leader is there., and then as soon as that person leaves, now that bubble is exposed and will degrade. Yeah. Yeah. I, I'd say, you know, those bubbles are short-lived. It's, it's a bit like not having the captain of a ship involved in the plan where you're going. Yeah. And endorse that. Right. You know, almost. Basically put down the edict. This is where we're heading. This is how how quickly we need to get there, right? So yeah, I agree with you if if there's not executive sponsorship, it's not gonna work It'll sputter for a while and then it will fall down again People will go back to what they know best which is the way they've working before Because they're not really held to you know account right for by the CEO on this So grassroot movements don't really transform organizations. They just don't. I mean, they, they can go so far. Yeah, exactly. But, but also like grassroots movements that like evolve around a, a person or an idea or whatever, like you're, you're up against people's identities. You're up against people's education. Like maybe they just don't know any better to like what you were saying is like, this is the way they were brought up. They just don't know any better. Yeah. They're not purposefully trying. It's just they don't know any other techniques, you know, absolutely. I resistance from middle management. We talk about that one a lot on the podcast. Assuming everything is best case scenario, you're being employed by the C suite. This is an important thing. The CEO has made the, this is a strategic thing. We're not going to worry about ROI. We're not going to worry about, you know, where the cost is coming from. This, the CEO has made a point. This is important for us. Let's make it happen. And then you get deployed and you realize there's really no incentive, for the middle management tier of the organization to change their ways of working. How do you deal with that? This is extremely common, first of all, right? And it's because there's a disconnect. There's a disconnect because the CEO simply puts the messaging down from the top, right? Right. And it comes across as an imperative. This is how you should do this. Immediately, those middle managers start feeling a little bit confident. Bothered under the collar, right? What's going to happen to us? So there's that fear, right? First of all. The other thing is they don't know anything to your point. They don't know what's different about agile ways of working. So as a coach, one of the things that I focus on is, is training that layer, the middle management, and really a swaging. I haven't used that word in a while. Their fear that they're not going to lose their jobs. They're actually maybe going to learn new skills now. That they can, you know, that they can use in their work. So if you can do that. Successfully, I think you'll have, you know, you'll have success in the overall transformation. You're always going to get, having said that, you're always going to get some people that are just so set in their ways of working and their ways of thinking, they will fight you tooth and nail. Right. Right. Now you have a choice. You can either go up above them and say, you know, I have some troublemakers here. And deal with it that way. It doesn't work that well if you do it that way. Or you could say, look, you do what you want to do, okay? If you're not comfortable, fine. But your peers are going to come along for the ride. And talk to them. So it's not a coach coming in saying, you know, you need to do this. Or else. After a little bit, they'll see that their peers are actually happier. They're working better. Their teams are producing more and they'll come along, but you need to be there to support them the whole way through. Right. Including, you know, providing them with the training, the reassurance, they won't be losing their jobs. Having said all of that, sometimes they will lose their jobs, right? But that's not a decision that a coach makes. That is a decision that's independent. Regardless of whether the organization was adopting agile ways of working or not, that was going to happen anyway. Right? So you've got to make that clear to those middle layer, typically the managers, directors. Is, this is not you coming in and wielding the hatchet. Yeah. This was gonna happen if it happens. Yeah. Well, I, I, I mean, to be honest, I, I really haven't seen, like, I think that's more like a fairytale, you folktale whatever. I like a more than more than anything else. It's like, oh, middle management's gonna lose your jobs. Because normally what happens in my experience is middle management, they don't lose their jobs. Their jobs change to, like, we need people. We need people that can hire and can spot and hire talent and then can work to coach and retain talent. And that's where the middle management, they pivot to become these mentors and coaches in the middle of these cross team mentors and coaches. And I mean, yeah, I totally get like some people just aren't gonna like they're, they're command control. They don't see a reason. Like I just, I told you how to do it. Coaching is not in their toolkit. Right. Empathy is not in their toolkit. if you're going through something like this, do you feel those people are sticking out already? Like before you even go through. Yeah, the coaching exercises for sure. I mean, you can see it right away. You know who's gonna be a stickler there. So yeah, absolutely agree. Yeah, those are the people, like you said, you know, their jobs will change. They will be the people that make sure they look after the people, right? So their teams making sure that the teams have training and have all the tooling they need, et cetera. Yeah. In, in essence, they're becoming true managers of their people. Right. I don't know what they were doing before, but I'm sure there was a whole bunch of admin stuff they were doing that possibly doesn't need to be done. We're going to flip the advantages now. The number one benefit, ideally for the C suite is when we do this, we're going to be more strategically aligned because what we closer to customers. We'll be better strategically aligned. So if you're in this organization that you clearly see, like, Oh, they, they, people are just like, they're moving at the speed of middle management or moving at the speed of bureaucracy, and now we might, we want to move at the speed of what is the most strategically impactful. I mean, this is like the, the doing the right thing versus doing the, you know, that kind of thing. Where do you start at that? Because that's, that seems such an overwhelming task of like all your teams could be working on whatever they think is important. But there's no strategic alignment. Maybe there's not like strong central product leadership to be like, this is definitely the most important thing. It's tested. We have strategies. We, those strategies are written down somewhere, you know, and they've actually filtered into product backlogs as opposed to like someone just cooked them up overnight. It seems overwhelming. If you're talking about a company of like 10, 000 plus people. Let alone like forget a hundred thousand plus global organization. It seems overwhelming to go from like zero to all of our teams are aligned to the most important thing, yeah, well, it certainly can be right. So between those two extremes, there's a big continuum. Right. So you would start with. Talking to the CEO or whoever's making the decision to bring you in and figuring out where are they hurting the most and make an impact there. You're not going to be able to change a large organization, even tens of thousands, forget hundreds of thousands in one fell swoop. So go in and figure out with the help of the C suite, where are they really hurting? What's their biggest pain point? If it's. No, they don't have clarity around product. Who are their customers? If they don't know that we can have sessions around that and sharpen the thinking there. Right. So you're basically, it's like Who was the sculptor? I can't remember the guy's name. Anyway, any sculptor, all the sculptors I know are because I, because I watched teenage mutant Ninja Turtles in the eighties. That's the only reason I know any sculptors. Michelangelo, Michelangelo. Yeah. And he was radical dude. So it's Chuck Norris. Yeah, so what we got to do, so we've got to chip away at the sculpture slowly where it starts to, you know, form a shape, right? But you know, where do you start? That's the key thing and, and you use their guidance on this. I mean, where are they hurting the most? What if you encounter bubbles in the organization that are like siloed agile transformation attempts through, you know, maybe I was going to say competent leaders, but what I really mean is like, like leaders tried to move things in the, in the, in the direction, but like only a little bubble. So, you know, you're going, you're sweeping across the whole organization. Maybe you see things that are working. Like, do you try to. Capitalize on those things. Are you, do you try to like even them out? Like how, how have you ever encountered that? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially when you look at teams that are, for example software teams, right, you'll see that they've already started to do things in that way because people have come across it before. I would look at how they're doing first, right. And if they're doing well, then yeah, you would then look at the next bubble. If they're doing well, what are some of the good things that they're doing and combine those. And start to get the the power of many, right? But at the same time you've got to be open to looking at some of those anti patterns that they may be practicing unbeknownst to them And point those out and say if we tweak those we could be so much better, right? And then try that out on one bubble And instill that across across the board. So yeah, it's like it's like when I put a A piece of film on my phone it bubbles Consolidate all of those. But yeah, definitely, there's a lot of there's a lot of benefit, first of all, if there's pockets that are truly moving in the right direction, even if they're not completely aligned. Because your job is to simply nudge them here and, you know, here and there, right? That's a lot easier. Then going into a brand new situation where you have to train everybody and you have to shift their mindset, basically. So if they're already starting to think that way, it makes it easier for you. What are the common pitfalls that you will encounter, with regard to risks that you're, that you're trying to like get ahead of, you know, in, in this kind of transformation, because this is the whole organization. It's not like one individual team or a software development group or whatever, like, this is all the programs, you know, like what are the big risks that you see? I understand you're saying like, well, I want to find out where their most painful point is and I want to get ahead of that, but like, what is the most common, most painful things that organizations deal with that you try to jump in front of? So the funny, you should ask that because one of the most common things is They don't see what's in front of them because that's where they've lived the whole time. You're coming in with a fresh pair of eyes, right? Without any kind of bias. You don't know their process. You're questioning everything and you start to see things that they've just basically Ignored not willingly ignored. They just don't know. Yeah, right So it's contextual. But if you point that out to them you get one of two responses one is Okay, kid, we've been doing this for a while. Okay. That's, that's the product management response right there. Stay in your lane. Get out of my office, kid. We got this. Like we don't need any of your backlog vision product, like success things. That, that's one direction it goes in. And the other direction is they say, Oh, well, we didn't realize that. How do we, how do we get ahead of that? Now we can talk. Right. So if you get the former, right. If you get the former, this is easy to deal with because all I've got to do is say, I see this, you don't see this, right? You're going to continue working the way you want. That's, that's your decision. I'm just simply going to report this up to the person that brought me in and say, I think that might be a risk. And then I just stay out of that one. Yeah. Watch what happens. You know, typically what happens is the CEO will look at that and say, well, there's a risk there. They'll call people into the office and we'll have a discussion. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, the funny thing about what you just said is like, it's. So very basic to agile coaching. It's like, Hey, like I noticed this thing. I'm just going to make it visible here. It is like, I'm just pointing out that I made it visible. There it is. We're tracking it now. Here's the mirror, but you can see the flaws in the reflection. Right. You can do something about them or you can, or you can not, you can be like, Hey, that's, that's just the way it looks. Exactly that. And in those extreme cases where they say, you don't understand our business. Yeah. You know, stay away. We're unique. And that's fine. You know, that to those people, I say, listen, The mirror is still the mirror, you don't like it, change the mirror. You're still going to say the same thing, but that's your decision. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me fire all my employees and get people in here they'll tell me what I want to hear. So I don't feel less changing But I do want to cut into time to market like that. That's something you show them in the mirror. That I feel can't be ignored time to market for changes or to respond to trends or for new initiatives, you mean brand new things. If you can quantify time to market across their programs to kind of show them like, Hey, it takes you eight, nine, eight, nine months is short. Like banks, for example, eight, nine months is short. Like, Hey, it takes you years to add. You know, Hey, everyone's a, what are we, sorry? I was going to say AI, but maybe that's too new for some people. Maybe some people are still struggling to do AI blockchain. There we go. Oh, we got to get blockchain in our application. Like, okay. Right sweet Yeah, so I but look this this this is a good topic because time to market is a It's really a a related factor to decision making The longer you spend making decisions the longer your time to market and and you so you say decision making but I've i'm i'm Binning this under the larger like in the folder of financial impact. Yeah, of course time to market Goes in the folder of financial impact. So if I can improve time to market, my financial impact is shorter. Even if I put features out to market in like days, not months or years, and they turn out to be garbage and nobody uses them or they users hate them cause I'm assuming my dev team then pivots to some other feature or turns them off or whatever. The financial impact of us wasting our time on that. Is minor, you know what I mean? As opposed to like, well, we worked two and a half years. We spun up hundreds of employees, did a big program. It took us 18 months to get it to the markets moved on. Yeah. Yeah. And then the markets moved on yeah. It's yeah. Time to time to market and a bunch of other product metrics. I feel like you really need to pivot the organization to start looking at these things because otherwise the organization looks at like timelines and Gantt charts and there's just things that are not important. Well, you think what you're saying really is the shift from project thinking to product thinking, right, because customers don't buy projects. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And that, like that, that changing to build these internal capabilities. Of, you know, product thinking of like, we're going to offer a service or we're going to create a new value stream and then customers are going to flock to us to buy that new volume stream and we're going to have a team that maintains it and people that mean there are people that maintain this delivery of this value and that's the way we think now we don't think like, well, we're going to build this house and once the house is built, we are going to collect rent for 20 years and then, you know, Cash out in Brodown or whatever, like, you know, and then we're out. We, it costs us nothing to basically maintain it. Well, that's not true. Like in, in fact in software development it kind of is the opposite of that. Yeah. Is like you, you pay a small amount upfront to build the house and then the house has to be maintained for a long time. Yeah. For a long time. And the maintenance cost is actually significant. Mm-Hmm. as it's, it's actually very much not like. Owning a house or commercial real estate or whatever. That's exactly right. Yeah So one of the side benefits of changing the way people work is it breaks down silos across different business domains? Generally speaking when you do that it results in better communication, ultimately quicker decision making You could argue and stretch that and say quicker time to market because decisions are the biggest kind of impediment to time to market. And, and last but not least, employee morale improves. People like working there, right? Because, you know, they see the change. Yeah. They're not just stuck in that, you know, One area where it's it's more like a blame culture in that scenario because if you don't succeed and your area doesn't succeed You have to you have to defend that right? This is more we're together as a company, right? well, I feel People say morale and morale means like nearly nothing. But like your your satisfaction Satisfaction internal and external so you like your internal employees And your external customers, like that satisfaction that can be measured directly. Sure. You know and like I said, that's a business outcome, like a, just like time to market the business outcome revenue impact of any new initiative that you Create and start all those can be directly measured as a business outcome Yeah, you can also directly measure, you know, churn your employee turnover rate, right? If they're happy, they're less likely to churn things that are internal that you can measure here your, your employee engagement, your employee satisfaction, stuff like that, churn, turnover I've been with companies that measure the referral of new employees by current employees. They measure that rate to see where they're, cause they like to see that, people in house are referring. new employees to roles because they like to see that like, you know, Hey, that, that's a direct correlation you could say of, of we have a good culture. And then you, you already pointed out that the speed of decision making we didn't talk about quality at all. We didn't and it's surprising because quality will automatically go up as a result of this change, right? And purely because you have more eyes and different perspectives looking at the product you're offering as opposed to, you know, A, B and C. Because that's typically the manufacturing mentality, right? We'll inspect for quality at the end. So yeah, that's a very good point. And I think that translates to, you know, customer loyalty and, like you said, customer feedback is more positive. Happier customers. So, we've kind of run the gamut of all, kind of like up and down, left and right of, of enterprise. Agility coaching. Is there anything else we missed or any other final like things that you want to, you want to put a bow on this topic? I just wanted to say I have come across enterprise business agility coaches that really haven't. Been in the field long because you can self title anything. If you come across people like that, you know, just, just be careful because they're expensive and they aren't going to get you the results. So I I've seen that. And, and that's partly what's given this profession a bad name. I feel. Well, how would you like if you were a partner, if you were like, let's pretend you that for a second, people retained you as their, you know like their board advisor, when they wanted to onboard these people. Like, are there things that you would look for? Are there questions that you would ask of people looking to work with companies? I mean, you'd certainly be looking for evidence that they've, you know, done this sort of work before. Right? positive, you know, and positive outcomes from that. You don't just, you have to be forged through that process several times before you come out and start to be even barely effective. Right. And then your experiences will take you further. So if you haven't got that, I mean, then I, I wouldn't be able to recommend people like that. Yeah. I'd be definitely looking for. Yeah. Evidence that you've been through these experiences before and come out with learnings at least. So yeah, this is a podcast, you know, since you are enterprise business, Julie coach, I wanted to cover this one. I figured this was a pretty easy for us to kind of talk through and ask a million questions. It was super easy for me cause I just asked some questions and then that was quiet and I was most of the podcast. So thank you. Thanks Om. And you know, if you like this podcast or if you have questions about it feel free to add 'em in the comments or hit us up at on, on the website, arguing agile.com or Agile podcast questions at Gmail. Or hit us up on LinkedIn or, or the old Tweety Twitter X, whatever the kids call it these days. And like, and subscribe. Yes. Like, and subscribe.