All Aboard the AI Hype Train!!!
Product management is DEAD! It died facing a high-noon showdown with AI, and the rumors of it's demise are spreading faster than a locomotive through the boom-town of Silicon Valley.
In this episode of Arguing Agile, Product Manager Brian Orlando and Enterprise Business Agility Coach Om Patel try a daring uncoupling of the the AI hype train as they examine Claire Vo's take on whether product management is about to derail.
Listen as we navigate treacherous mountain passes following this shiny new engine, exploring:
The runaway train of AI expectations vs. reality
Why the "lone ranger" product manager is a dangerous myth
Navigating the switchyard of cross-functional collaboration
Breaking out of the Silicon Valley echo chamber
Why technical skills are just one car in the product management train
What's your ticket to the future of product management say? Drop your perspective in the comments, partner!
#AI #ProductManagement #Innovation #TeamTopologies #TechLeadership #ProductDevelopment #AgileCoaching
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00:00:01 --> 00:00:10 welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast, where Enterprise Business Agility Coach Om Patel and Product Manager Brian Orlando argue about product management, leadership, and business agility, so you don't have to.
00:00:11 --> 00:00:12 welcome back to Arguing Agile.
00:00:12 --> 00:00:16 We got a very fast, very quick to the Point podcast today.
00:00:16 --> 00:00:20 I wanted om to listen to a clip that I listened to very recently.
00:00:20 --> 00:00:23 It's from Claire be who's the Chief Product Officer of LaunchDarkly at.
00:00:24 --> 00:00:39 The Lenny and friends summit from October 24th 2024, whenever people find this video, 2024 could be a time capsule . Anyway I, I've I've been noticing much like everyone else has of all of these click baity, everything is dead, everything is dead.
00:00:39 --> 00:00:40 Product management is dead.
00:00:40 --> 00:00:41 Agile is dead.
00:00:41 --> 00:00:42 Agility is dead.
00:00:42 --> 00:00:42 Yeah.
00:00:42 --> 00:00:43 Everything's dead.
00:00:43 --> 00:00:44 You're right.
00:00:44 --> 00:00:45 Doomsayers are out there.
00:00:45 --> 00:00:47 Everything is trying to be relevant again.
00:00:47 --> 00:00:50 So this would be interesting because I have not actually watched this before.
00:00:51 --> 00:00:51 That's right.
00:00:51 --> 00:00:52 So I actually didn't watch it.
00:00:52 --> 00:00:56 I put it into our channel and then I watched it.
00:00:56 --> 00:01:03 During the week, to see if it was actually worth us reviewing and I do think, I think it's worth us reviewing and I want to get your take, so let's go through this.
00:01:03 --> 00:01:08 I apologize if the audio is a little wonky on this episode, I said, it'll be a quick episode either way.
00:01:08 --> 00:01:09 So let's let's dig right into it.
00:01:09 --> 00:01:10 We're going to watch the whole thing.
00:01:11 --> 00:01:12 Good morning.
00:01:12 --> 00:01:13 I'm very excited to be.
00:01:14 --> 00:01:19 Karen, they thought, what should we do bright and early at the product leaders conference?
00:01:19 --> 00:01:22 Just go ahead and mix product management entirely.
00:01:22 --> 00:01:23 Let's get rid of it.
00:01:24 --> 00:01:27 We can all go enjoy a great san francisco october morning.
00:01:27 --> 00:01:30 So I'm here to tell you, and I actually believe this to be true.
00:01:30 --> 00:01:32 This is not a hot take for the sake of hot takes.
00:01:33 --> 00:01:36 Product management is dead or it will be soon.
00:01:36 --> 00:01:41 And so I'm here to talk about what we're all going to do Instead, but first what an amazing conference.
00:01:41 --> 00:01:41 Okay.
00:01:41 --> 00:01:42 Everybody smile.
00:01:42 --> 00:01:43 Cause you all never get this.
00:01:43 --> 00:01:44 Let's take a picture.
00:01:44 --> 00:01:45 I don't understand what's happening.
00:01:45 --> 00:01:46 Like she's taking a picture with her glasses.
00:01:46 --> 00:01:48 That's freaking me out over here.
00:01:48 --> 00:01:48 That's what I'm saying.
00:01:48 --> 00:01:51 Product management is dead, Om.
00:01:51 --> 00:01:54 It's not a hot take, but product management is dead it's not a hot take.
00:01:54 --> 00:01:56 It's dead and she's not the first to say it.
00:01:56 --> 00:01:57 She won't be the last to say it.
00:01:57 --> 00:01:59 So what are we doing instead?
00:01:59 --> 00:02:04 So I feel like a lot of people in the agile space, not just product management, but also just generally, right?
00:02:04 --> 00:02:08 Well, some people in the product space are in the agile transformation space.
00:02:08 --> 00:02:09 Some of them are.
00:02:09 --> 00:02:10 I know.
00:02:10 --> 00:02:13 As if the product space wasn't big enough for them.
00:02:13 --> 00:02:15 So they're saying things like XYZ is dead.
00:02:15 --> 00:02:17 What do we do instead?
00:02:17 --> 00:02:21 I feel like for the most part, these people are trying to make themselves relevant again.
00:02:21 --> 00:02:25 Oh, I really thought you were going to say buy my book or my product.
00:02:25 --> 00:02:26 That's what they say.
00:02:26 --> 00:02:31 They say so and so's XYZ is dead, buy my product, buy my services, buy my training.
00:02:31 --> 00:02:32 Yeah.
00:02:32 --> 00:02:35 So again, to my point, they're trying to become relevant again.
00:02:36 --> 00:02:37 They're trying to become an elephant.
00:02:37 --> 00:02:38 Make Agile relevant again.
00:02:38 --> 00:02:39 That's what this is.
00:02:39 --> 00:02:40 First reaction.
00:02:40 --> 00:02:42 We'll see what happens.
00:02:42 --> 00:02:43 Let's see what happens.
00:02:43 --> 00:02:48 Give it, give it, Give it your patience, because I'm telling you I think it'll surprise you where it's going.
00:02:48 --> 00:02:49 Okay, cool.
00:02:49 --> 00:02:50 Okay, we got the picture.
00:02:50 --> 00:02:52 We'll see if the smiles are still there at the end of the talk.
00:02:52 --> 00:02:59 Alright, so I've been saying this a lot, but AI is going to transform the role of product design in engineering.
00:02:59 --> 00:03:01 Faster than we all expect.
00:03:01 --> 00:03:06 And whenever I say this, people go, yeah, Claire, and I say, no, no, no faster than that.
00:03:06 --> 00:03:12 And so I want you all to think about the rate of change in technology over the last 18 to 24 months.
00:03:13 --> 00:03:20 Things that candidly, after two decades of being in a product role, I never thought I would see in my lifetime has now become.
00:03:20 --> 00:03:20 All right.
00:03:20 --> 00:03:20 All right.
00:03:21 --> 00:03:22 I see you making facial expressions.
00:03:22 --> 00:03:23 We're going to, we're going to pause here.
00:03:23 --> 00:03:25 First of all, the two things just happened there.
00:03:25 --> 00:03:36 AI everything, AI panic, AI hype, If you've been in the space for 18, 20 years and you're thinking that just in the last two, three years this is happening, you've been in Timbuktu.
00:03:36 --> 00:03:36 I mean, come on.
00:03:37 --> 00:03:37 Seriously?
00:03:38 --> 00:03:43 I mean, it's, it's It's, listen, the, the, the publicity is rampant now.
00:03:43 --> 00:03:45 I I'll get, I'll grab that, right?
00:03:45 --> 00:03:49 But there's always been that potential that you could use automation.
00:03:49 --> 00:03:52 You could use these things to enhance the way you're working.
00:03:52 --> 00:03:53 Om, and there are books to be sold, all right?
00:03:53 --> 00:03:58 There are, there are product operating models and there are, there are things to be purchased.
00:03:58 --> 00:04:03 There are ChatGPTs to be queried and integrated with, okay, those are still by themselves.
00:04:03 --> 00:04:13 I don't, I don't want to hear your product, like a product and technology is cyclical and goes up to the ups and downs as well as the trends and the buzzwords and all that kind of stuff.
00:04:13 --> 00:04:16 And what was here 18 months ago will be gone 18 months from now.
00:04:16 --> 00:04:18 I don't want to hear all that by my book.
00:04:18 --> 00:04:19 Become kind of boring to me.
00:04:19 --> 00:04:23 I think the rate of chain is very fast in our job.
00:04:23 --> 00:04:25 Is to not be surprised.
00:04:25 --> 00:04:32 And so when I tell my team about building product strategy, I say I'm not interested in building a great product for today.
00:04:32 --> 00:04:41 I'm interested in thinking about what our customers are going to need from us in 35 and 10 years and building the product that's going to push towards that future that we believe in.
00:04:42 --> 00:04:44 Well, that's basic product management right there.
00:04:44 --> 00:04:46 Or you could say business leadership, either or.
00:04:46 --> 00:04:48 But that, that seems pretty basic to me.
00:04:48 --> 00:04:49 I, I agree with that.
00:04:49 --> 00:04:51 I, I didn't think she was gonna go there, but that's good.
00:04:51 --> 00:04:54 I mean, you should always be looking at what's next.
00:04:54 --> 00:04:56 Where's the horizon, right?
00:04:56 --> 00:04:57 And what's beyond the horizon.
00:04:57 --> 00:04:59 You should always be thinking that, so.
00:04:59 --> 00:05:00 It also confirms my thinking.
00:05:00 --> 00:05:10 Whenever I watch these, like product influencer type of videos, Say the most mundane stuff, but say it say it in a passionate way so that people, we should be building products for the future.
00:05:10 --> 00:05:14 This is to me, this is in the same category as sports announcers on TV.
00:05:15 --> 00:05:17 When you watch any sport, they'll say the obvious.
00:05:17 --> 00:05:18 The play just happened.
00:05:19 --> 00:05:20 You, you watched it, right?
00:05:20 --> 00:05:24 I think I said, well, that's what happens when you drop the ball.
00:05:24 --> 00:05:25 We just saw that.
00:05:25 --> 00:05:26 We don't need that.
00:05:26 --> 00:05:29 Sometimes I just mute that and just listen to the music.
00:05:29 --> 00:05:31 This is, I don't know what you're talking about.
00:05:31 --> 00:05:34 This is, I watch golf highlights and I'm not sure if the ball's going to go in the hole.
00:05:34 --> 00:05:36 That's you know, I've got to know if the ball's going to go in that hole.
00:05:36 --> 00:05:39 That's when the commentator says, that's what happens when you don't aim it right.
00:05:39 --> 00:05:40 It goes in the water.
00:05:40 --> 00:05:41 It goes in the bunker.
00:05:41 --> 00:05:45 We build products for the future, Om.
00:05:45 --> 00:05:46 That's a good start.
00:05:46 --> 00:05:46 Let's pick it up.
00:05:47 --> 00:05:50 And I really believe the same goes for building product teams.
00:05:50 --> 00:05:56 I want to imagine the product team of 18 months from now, 3 years from now, 5 years from now, 10 years from now.
00:05:56 --> 00:05:58 I want to think about how that team is really going to operate.
00:05:59 --> 00:06:01 I want to place some bets on what I think is going to change.
00:06:01 --> 00:06:03 And I want to build that team.
00:06:03 --> 00:06:06 But before I go there, I'm just going to tell a little story about Vayner.
00:06:06 --> 00:06:10 Oh, the old Brian Chesky, before I do that, I'm going to tell you a little story.
00:06:10 --> 00:06:12 I went on a hike, oh man, I got stuffed up.
00:06:13 --> 00:06:19 I, I like where she's going in terms of thinking about what kind of teams are you building for the future, right?
00:06:19 --> 00:06:25 But I don't think you can look that far ahead with that, because change is going to make you think again and again and again, right?
00:06:25 --> 00:06:27 So five, ten years, it's too long.
00:06:28 --> 00:06:29 Well, my initial reaction.
00:06:29 --> 00:06:34 I believe I'm wrong, but my initial reaction is she's not gonna mention teams again.
00:06:34 --> 00:06:37 It's gonna be you by my book, but I, I, I'm pretty sure I'm wrong about that.
00:06:37 --> 00:06:41 Let's, let's, let's venture on, let's go and hear her little story Sure.
00:06:41 --> 00:06:42 About going on a hike.
00:06:42 --> 00:06:51 Baby Claire, CPO many, many moons ago, and I know you all have maybe started new product leadership jobs and you've got asked this question, so.
00:06:51 --> 00:06:51 You know, you're here.
00:06:51 --> 00:06:52 You have some experience.
00:06:52 --> 00:06:52 What?
00:06:53 --> 00:06:54 What's our product strategy?
00:06:54 --> 00:06:56 Anybody been asked that question before?
00:06:56 --> 00:06:56 Yeah.
00:06:56 --> 00:06:57 Okay, great.
00:06:57 --> 00:06:58 One person.
00:06:58 --> 00:06:58 Great.
00:06:58 --> 00:07:00 This is a great, great conference.
00:07:00 --> 00:07:07 And I remember doing this exercise of what's our great product strategy, and I went through this exercise where I said, Okay, first, I'm gonna talk to customers.
00:07:07 --> 00:07:08 I'm gonna talk to a bunch of them.
00:07:08 --> 00:07:11 I'm gonna take a bunch of notes, and then I'm gonna talk to the team.
00:07:11 --> 00:07:16 I'm gonna talk to sales, which is money mouth cowboy, which might also be sales.
00:07:16 --> 00:07:20 We got CFO in the glasses and engineering who's too cool to even look at you.
00:07:20 --> 00:07:22 We're going to talk to the team, we're going to say what do you think?
00:07:22 --> 00:07:23 What have you seen?
00:07:24 --> 00:07:29 And then I'm going to think really hard, like I'm going to take all that information out of my brain, I'm going to think so hard, and I'm going to type.
00:07:29 --> 00:07:34 And I'm going to put it into this doc that says, my amazing strategy, of course it's going to be in Coda.
00:07:35 --> 00:07:40 So I'm going to do this amazing strategy, and then I'm going to take it back to the team, but they're now annoyed because they don't like what I came up with.
00:07:41 --> 00:07:43 And I'm going to get more feedback from this team.
00:07:43 --> 00:07:51 And then I'm going to think really hard again, I'll use my brain, everything I know about the market, all my strategic books that I've ever read in my life.
00:07:51 --> 00:07:53 I'm going to think back to play bigger.
00:07:53 --> 00:07:58 And then I'm going to do my amazing strategy V1, and then I'm going to give it to the team.
00:07:58 --> 00:08:01 And the team's going to give me 8, 000 comments.
00:08:01 --> 00:08:04 And then the the drill, the brain goes back into play.
00:08:04 --> 00:08:11 And then I have my really amazing strategy, final, final, this one with a link to all the drafts at the top.
00:08:11 --> 00:08:16 Boy, this is the podcast, or I guess day of, looking at our other podcasts how do you spell PRD?
00:08:16 --> 00:08:19 PRD arguing.
00:08:19 --> 00:08:20 Sorry, editing Brian.
00:08:20 --> 00:08:24 So arguing Agile number 123 PRDs.
00:08:24 --> 00:08:36 And , I remember the, the core back and forth of Arguing Agile 123 was me saying like, I don't want to write a big document and go off on a corner and keep revising it and have like, as things go on, I've got to keep adding to it or whatever.
00:08:36 --> 00:08:41 And you were like, no, no, no, it should be either, either it's a living document or it just gets you started.
00:08:41 --> 00:08:47 But it's not like, You're going back to it and you're treating it like documentation or whatever like that's not the point, right?
00:08:47 --> 00:09:01 The point is it's a vision it gets us all on the same page It kicks us off and then once we're off we're off, you know We're in the functional system it was a good conversation and in in the prd discussions, I very forgot the number 121 3 It's in the 20s Maybe it's still on my screen.
00:09:01 --> 00:09:02 Hang on 1 23.
00:09:02 --> 00:09:03 1, 2, 3, 1, 2, 3.
00:09:03 --> 00:09:05 Ah, it's as basic as 1, 2, 3.
00:09:05 --> 00:09:06 Easy, easy.
00:09:06 --> 00:09:11 Anyway, so, so my, my frustration in arguing Agile 1 23 was I don't wanna write a PRD.
00:09:11 --> 00:09:12 I think they're silly.
00:09:13 --> 00:09:14 I think they're useless.
00:09:14 --> 00:09:21 Like it's, this is like the, the PMs that write a big document and then give it to their tech lead and say, go build this and then go and get lunch all day.
00:09:21 --> 00:09:23 That's not what I do as a PM.
00:09:24 --> 00:09:25 I've never had the luxury of doing that.
00:09:25 --> 00:09:26 And you should not be doing it.
00:09:26 --> 00:09:28 If you're doing that, you're not doing your job right.
00:09:28 --> 00:09:32 Well, I feel there's a lot of people she's talking to you right now that that is their world.
00:09:32 --> 00:09:34 They don't, they're not in the technical details.
00:09:34 --> 00:09:36 They got a tech lead that kind of keeps them on track.
00:09:36 --> 00:09:41 And I was going to say changes their diaper when they need feeds them when they need feeding and stuff like that, like that.
00:09:41 --> 00:09:44 It's a little patronizing that kind of workflow that she's describing right now.
00:09:44 --> 00:09:46 I fully agree with that assessment.
00:09:46 --> 00:09:47 My feeling was the same.
00:09:47 --> 00:09:50 I think those little silhouettes you see at the bottom, right?
00:09:50 --> 00:09:54 There are going to be some people there that can relate to this directly and say, This is what I do.
00:09:54 --> 00:09:55 This is my job.
00:09:55 --> 00:10:03 And it's so not I mean, now, if you want to strip out any segment of product out of this and call it a business analyst, You got me right.
00:10:03 --> 00:10:04 Yeah, you're right this is a tough job.
00:10:05 --> 00:10:06 Someone's got to do it, but that's not what she's good job.
00:10:07 --> 00:10:07 No, it's not.
00:10:08 --> 00:10:09 What's our product strategy.
00:10:09 --> 00:10:14 What's our, yeah, what's our, it looks like our, what's our business analysis day to day look like?
00:10:14 --> 00:10:17 Cause that, that looks like a BA chasing people around.
00:10:17 --> 00:10:17 Yeah.
00:10:18 --> 00:10:18 All right.
00:10:18 --> 00:10:20 Well, trust me, it does get better.
00:10:20 --> 00:10:21 There's a reason we're watching this.
00:10:21 --> 00:10:24 So this, I legitimately remember doing this.
00:10:24 --> 00:10:28 It output this like 10 page document that I think was pretty good.
00:10:28 --> 00:10:32 It took me weeks and weeks and weeks, so many conference rooms when we did that sort of thing.
00:10:32 --> 00:10:35 And, that was how I built a product strategy.
00:10:35 --> 00:10:38 The last time I built a product strategy, this is what it looked like.
00:10:38 --> 00:10:40 I dropped off my kids at school.
00:10:40 --> 00:10:43 I had done the customer calls and talking to people.
00:10:43 --> 00:10:46 I put chat, chat GPT voice on my phone and I just prattled.
00:10:46 --> 00:10:48 I just did this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:10:48 --> 00:10:51 And I asked, hey, what's our product strategy after all my prattling?
00:10:52 --> 00:10:53 And guess what?
00:10:53 --> 00:10:57 I got the same ten page paper On what our product strategy was.
00:10:57 --> 00:11:01 I of course sat down on my laptop, made it a little better, but I would say like for like, it was pretty good.
00:11:02 --> 00:11:06 And that is the difference in how product can operate.
00:11:06 --> 00:11:08 I think it's a perfect metaphor for how product is changing.
00:11:08 --> 00:11:11 Is it a perfect metaphor for how product is changing?
00:11:11 --> 00:11:12 Oh, boy.
00:11:12 --> 00:11:12 Oh, boy.
00:11:12 --> 00:11:14 I'm struggling to this is that.
00:11:14 --> 00:11:18 But this, this is the exact case for AI, though, is like the automate the low hanging fruit.
00:11:18 --> 00:11:19 Sure sure.
00:11:19 --> 00:11:20 So this is fine.
00:11:20 --> 00:11:25 It I think the quality of her output was directly proportional quality of her input, like anything else.
00:11:26 --> 00:11:29 So again, I want to get to the core of what she's saying, but I'm, I'm very happy where she's at.
00:11:29 --> 00:11:34 Like, I'm glad she had that revelation of like, Hey, this stuff that I was doing was kind of useless and I'm going to stop doing that.
00:11:34 --> 00:11:41 I feel, I feel better for all of those people that were involved in those conversations previously, because now it frees them up to do what they need to do.
00:11:41 --> 00:11:41 All right, let's go.
00:11:42 --> 00:11:46 So before it took weeks to write and revise and sharpen a long product strategy.
00:11:47 --> 00:11:50 Now I'm hanging out in my minivan, talking to chat GPT on my way to work.
00:11:51 --> 00:11:56 You know, before you would take these days to write feedback and requirements in a doc and da, da, da, da, da.
00:11:56 --> 00:12:02 And now you're taking 15 minutes to scaffold out something that's 80 percent good and then 45 minutes to sharpen and then ship it.
00:12:03 --> 00:12:05 You would draw wireframes on paper.
00:12:05 --> 00:12:12 I used to use paper, like draw wireframes on paper or balsamiq if you're being cute and then wait for design to work on UX.
00:12:12 --> 00:12:15 See, this is the audience for a balsamiq joke.
00:12:15 --> 00:12:20 And now you can share these fully functional prototypes with your teams and customers literally in minutes.
00:12:20 --> 00:12:23 You can manually pour through customer feedback.
00:12:23 --> 00:12:26 Everybody has the spreadsheet for ideas and priorities.
00:12:26 --> 00:12:29 Now you can automate those insights With no code tools.
00:12:30 --> 00:12:31 And then finally there's slides.
00:12:31 --> 00:12:32 There's so many slides.
00:12:32 --> 00:12:37 We're making slides all the time, and now we're making slides, but they're generated by AI.
00:12:37 --> 00:12:40 So there's a good list of like before and now.
00:12:40 --> 00:12:44 So she was writing documents, she was sketching things and sending it to other people to implement.
00:12:44 --> 00:12:52 She was pouring through customer feedback and in, in, in Excel format and whatnot, I'm assuming people were giving it to her.
00:12:52 --> 00:12:53 I don't really know.
00:12:54 --> 00:12:55 And she was making PowerPoints.
00:12:55 --> 00:12:58 So again, we need to get all this on the table of what she was doing.
00:12:58 --> 00:12:58 Okay.
00:12:58 --> 00:13:00 Because again, I don't do any of this.
00:13:01 --> 00:13:02 I don't do that.
00:13:02 --> 00:13:03 I don't do PowerPoints.
00:13:03 --> 00:13:04 I do.
00:13:04 --> 00:13:06 I take a first pass with clickable wireframes.
00:13:06 --> 00:13:08 If I think it's important enough.
00:13:08 --> 00:13:08 Otherwise I'll just do.
00:13:09 --> 00:13:10 Static wireframes.
00:13:10 --> 00:13:14 But if it's important enough, I will get in Figma and I will make actual clickable wireframes.
00:13:14 --> 00:13:22 Like if I'm cooking up something out of, out of the blue, like an idea that I have based on talking to a customer or that somebody internally said they talked to a customer and right.
00:13:22 --> 00:13:22 They give them feedback.
00:13:23 --> 00:13:25 I will cook that concept up and then I'll shop it around.
00:13:26 --> 00:13:27 And if it goes nowhere, it goes nowhere.
00:13:27 --> 00:13:36 But if we all like it and everyone agrees, only then I will engage my UIUX person to say like I took a first pass at clickable wireframes.
00:13:36 --> 00:13:37 They'll take my stuff.
00:13:37 --> 00:13:43 They'll yell at me for not making it object oriented and not naming it properly and I'll say yeah.
00:13:43 --> 00:13:44 Yeah, whatever get out of my office.
00:13:44 --> 00:13:46 But even in her now category.
00:13:46 --> 00:13:55 I'm already Further past that with what I do, but you but it's but it's it's good because she I think she's heading in the right direction Absolutely agree with that.
00:13:55 --> 00:13:59 So she's just looking at those two columns, right?
00:13:59 --> 00:14:03 She's saving tons of time, but she's still ending up with PowerPoint presentations.
00:14:03 --> 00:14:05 So, yeah, I mean, it's, it's an improvement.
00:14:05 --> 00:14:06 It's not the end point, right?
00:14:07 --> 00:14:08 I'm hoping she's going to go further now.
00:14:08 --> 00:14:09 I'll get you there.
00:14:09 --> 00:14:13 So this is before and now this isn't even the future.
00:14:13 --> 00:14:21 And I think now product work honestly takes less time, less thought and maybe less PMs.
00:14:21 --> 00:14:24 So, what does that mean?
00:14:24 --> 00:14:27 I think it means it could become more fun.
00:14:27 --> 00:14:34 But in order for it to become more fun, we have to do what all of us are really fabulous at, which is straight up pivot.
00:14:34 --> 00:14:35 So we're going to figure out something else.
00:14:35 --> 00:14:39 We're going to kill product management, but we're going to replace it with something else.
00:14:39 --> 00:14:48 And so I'm going to start with a couple pieces of advice on how to get there, and the first one is you need to become an AI powered product team now.
00:14:48 --> 00:14:52 And I think there are three requirements of an AI powered PM.
00:14:52 --> 00:14:54 They automate themselves to speed up delivery.
00:14:55 --> 00:15:01 They add new skills and they do more, and then they multiply their impact by teaching the team.
00:15:01 --> 00:15:08 I know she's going to elaborate on those, but before she does that, I want to cut you in front of her to see if any of those stick out to you.
00:15:08 --> 00:15:09 So three requirements.
00:15:09 --> 00:15:11 So first of all, the fact that you should be.
00:15:11 --> 00:15:15 Driving toward becoming proficient with AI isn't just product.
00:15:15 --> 00:15:16 Anybody.
00:15:16 --> 00:15:16 Yeah right.
00:15:17 --> 00:15:17 That's a good thing.
00:15:18 --> 00:15:18 Yeah.
00:15:18 --> 00:15:20 I think that's, I mean, it's very general advice.
00:15:20 --> 00:15:24 It's like, Hey, take this AI stuff, figure out where to integrate it into your workflow.
00:15:24 --> 00:15:24 Add new skills.
00:15:24 --> 00:15:25 Again, it applies it.
00:15:25 --> 00:15:26 And add new skills yeah.
00:15:26 --> 00:15:28 Multiply your impact by teaching your teams.
00:15:28 --> 00:15:30 You could say that about just about anything, really.
00:15:30 --> 00:15:33 If you're working in a team bring your peers up to speed.
00:15:33 --> 00:15:33 Yeah.
00:15:33 --> 00:15:36 You learn this new skill and you bring it back to your team and you teach them new skills.
00:15:36 --> 00:15:40 Now that's not quite the way that she's gonna wrap this discussion.
00:15:40 --> 00:15:41 Okay.
00:15:41 --> 00:15:46 You and I, who were like, we're a bit more team focused than, than what she's portraying here.
00:15:46 --> 00:16:03 Yeah, I'm going to learn a new skill, I'm going to bring them back to my team and then I'm going to spend time teaching them the skill, just like if they were doing something they could spend time do a demo and they can explain things and I can ask questions or if I if it's not enough for me, maybe I'll schedule a one on one or a deep dive or something like that and I'll learn the thing with the team.
00:16:03 --> 00:16:19 But again, the handoff basically that, that did, she's the implying, but not quite saying, whereas like you have a team, but they're more like you're delegating to the team rather than your part of the team that always bothers me about these kinds of presentations.
00:16:19 --> 00:16:20 But okay.
00:16:20 --> 00:16:23 I don't remember her going super deep on the team, but I could be wrong.
00:16:24 --> 00:16:24 Let's see.
00:16:24 --> 00:16:28 And you know, I really think you need to automate yourself to speed up delivery.
00:16:28 --> 00:16:30 That's task number one.
00:16:30 --> 00:16:32 Oh, that's her product chat PRD.
00:16:32 --> 00:16:33 There it is.
00:16:33 --> 00:16:34 Oh man.
00:16:34 --> 00:16:38 We got six minutes into a 20 minute video for, for by product came out.
00:16:38 --> 00:16:39 All right, let's keep going.
00:16:39 --> 00:16:42 And Jay Z was asking me behind backstage.
00:16:42 --> 00:16:43 She's like, how do you do it all?
00:16:43 --> 00:16:47 And then she goes, that's how you do it all, including how I do this talk.
00:16:47 --> 00:16:47 So I.
00:16:48 --> 00:16:50 Was like, how can I automate chat PRD?
00:16:50 --> 00:16:52 How can I automate away all the things that PMs do with AI?
00:16:52 --> 00:16:58 And I made this to do list, and you'll see how that to do list was generated with chat PRD as I go through it.
00:16:58 --> 00:17:00 So I'm gonna give you a anti to do list.
00:17:00 --> 00:17:04 These are things that you should no longer do on your own.
00:17:04 --> 00:17:07 You should automate these things immediately.
00:17:07 --> 00:17:10 One is draft documents.
00:17:10 --> 00:17:10 Don't do that.
00:17:10 --> 00:17:12 That's, that's for suckers.
00:17:12 --> 00:17:13 Two, get and give feedback.
00:17:13 --> 00:17:14 First passive feedback.
00:17:14 --> 00:17:20 You shouldn't have to give you should get feedback from AI or a tool writing updates.
00:17:20 --> 00:17:23 How many of you are writing updates daily a lot?
00:17:23 --> 00:17:24 No, no one's writing updates.
00:17:25 --> 00:17:26 No one's writing stress.
00:17:26 --> 00:17:29 Okay, we got one one product leader back here.
00:17:29 --> 00:17:35 I feel like either the crowd was sleepy because it was the first presentation in the morning or Nobody in the room actually does do the operational.
00:17:35 --> 00:17:37 I think the coffee has kicked in, it's just that nobody does it.
00:17:38 --> 00:17:42 I think, yeah, like she might have walked into a room that is like, Would you give updates?
00:17:42 --> 00:17:43 We heard about that.
00:17:43 --> 00:17:45 We don't, we don't do Gantt charts.
00:17:45 --> 00:17:47 Get out of here selling your Gantt chart tool.
00:17:47 --> 00:17:52 You know, with whatever tool you might be advertising as cutting edge, Agile tool, but it's actually just...
00:17:52 --> 00:18:19 a Gantt chart - JIRA! Alright, let's move on., Agenda, summaries, and action items out of meetings, prioritizing feature requests, monitoring goals and OKRs, even coming up with goals and OKRs, keeping track of competitors, prepping for interviews, consolidating candidate feedback if you're doing interviews, telling customer stories you're the keeper of, Oh, this feature is great.
00:18:19 --> 00:18:23 Cause so and so does this or so and so did that making slides pretty.
00:18:23 --> 00:18:24 Don't do that.
00:18:24 --> 00:18:26 And then explaining product functionality.
00:18:26 --> 00:18:30 We're all just walking support knowledge basis for our product areas.
00:18:30 --> 00:18:33 None of this you should be doing.
00:18:33 --> 00:18:43 You should think every time I do one of these tasks on this anti to do list, how can I automate it in the moment and help you speed up delivery overall, clear, clear the deck.
00:18:43 --> 00:18:45 And I think there are very easy ways.
00:18:45 --> 00:18:46 I basically, my trick here is.
00:18:47 --> 00:18:51 Every time I do one of those things, then I think in my heart, I wish I didn't have to do this.
00:18:51 --> 00:18:56 I go spend four to seven minutes trying to figure out if I can manifest a way not to have to do it.
00:18:56 --> 00:18:59 About 80 percent of the time I get it done and I ship it.
00:19:00 --> 00:19:05 And this is not about there's this mix of people who say, Oh, that saves time, but doesn't increase quality.
00:19:05 --> 00:19:10 And I'm just using this quote from somebody on my team who says, Don't look at it as how you can get to 100%.
00:19:10 --> 00:19:14 Look at how you can get to 75 percent faster than starting from zero.
00:19:14 --> 00:19:19 And I think people can save days every week by automating themselves.
00:19:19 --> 00:19:21 I don't see how that's different than the Pareto principle.
00:19:21 --> 00:19:24 I don't see how it's different than 80, 20, but it's, it isn't really.
00:19:24 --> 00:19:27 I think the underpinning here is just automated.
00:19:28 --> 00:19:28 Yeah.
00:19:28 --> 00:19:30 Automate 80, 20 but I mean, it's fine.
00:19:30 --> 00:19:31 I'll automate any 20 is fine.
00:19:31 --> 00:19:35 But again, like we just did a podcast on what product life cycle phase is your product in?
00:19:35 --> 00:19:49 And You know, if you're in that pre market pre MVP type of phase where you're just scrapping to keep the lights on or to scrapping to be able to pay payroll like automation is going to go by the wayside as you're just jamming new stuff in.
00:19:49 --> 00:19:57 So you need to be in a certain, you need a certain level of safety to be able to do this safety meaning Revenue or security from a large company.
00:19:57 --> 00:19:58 So that makes sense.
00:19:58 --> 00:20:00 But yeah, I agree with that.
00:20:00 --> 00:20:02 Smaller companies aren't going to do this day one.
00:20:02 --> 00:20:04 Well, let's, let's we're halfway.
00:20:04 --> 00:20:05 We're almost halfway through.
00:20:05 --> 00:20:09 And then I think you really need to use that time to add new skills and do more.
00:20:09 --> 00:20:20 So this is where we start thinking about how product management is going to change and to embarrass them when I call out Cody, Cody's on our team, he leads our product innovation and incubation team.
00:20:20 --> 00:20:20 And Cody.
00:20:21 --> 00:20:22 Actually comes from dev realm.
00:20:22 --> 00:20:27 So he's an engineer and Cody has shown any and he was in marketing.
00:20:27 --> 00:20:34 So he's not a product manager and Cody has just learned how to be an edge prototyper, start building product and code.
00:20:35 --> 00:20:36 And we said, Hey Cody, I'll give you a chat PRD.
00:20:37 --> 00:20:38 You want to be a product manager?
00:20:38 --> 00:20:40 And he's like, sure, I'll be a product manager.
00:20:40 --> 00:20:43 So he already has this propensity to add more skills.
00:20:43 --> 00:20:49 This is a non traditional product manager coming into a product leadership role and using AI to figure out how to be a product manager.
00:20:49 --> 00:21:01 There's so much that just got thrown out right now, like I have to pause, like I don't know about a product leader because like Marty Kagan definition of product leader is someone who supervises product managers.
00:21:01 --> 00:21:09 So it would be weird to take a developer who's working in some sort of marketing function on a create new things team.
00:21:09 --> 00:21:13 Like she just said he was in an innovation team and then roll other product managers under him.
00:21:13 --> 00:21:14 I don't think that's what's going on.
00:21:14 --> 00:21:17 I think they're just calling them product leaders because that's the new vogue term.
00:21:17 --> 00:21:25 But so you took someone with, who, with a developer background who was working in some kind of marketing function for new, new development.
00:21:25 --> 00:21:26 I don't quite understand what's happening there.
00:21:26 --> 00:21:30 And so, You said, use this AI tool in your product manager now.
00:21:30 --> 00:21:36 And I will tell you that doesn't really sound a lot different than a lot of the other ways that product managers I know got their start.
00:21:36 --> 00:21:39 So it sounds pretty normal to me, to be honest.
00:21:39 --> 00:21:42 It's yeah, it sounds normal, but it's incredible too.
00:21:42 --> 00:21:43 Yeah, right.
00:21:43 --> 00:21:48 Because the idea that you just have a tool and then you could use it and you become a product manager.
00:21:48 --> 00:21:50 That's a bit of a stretch in my mind.
00:21:50 --> 00:21:52 It is a stretch, it's anybody that got their certain product.
00:21:53 --> 00:22:01 Like I got my certain product management of being thrown a suite of internal tools that they were unsupportable by the teams and nobody could wrap their arms around a cohesive strategy for all of them.
00:22:01 --> 00:22:04 And it was like, congratulations, kid, you're managing the organization.
00:22:04 --> 00:22:07 You need more than two day jobs.
00:22:07 --> 00:22:11 Of team leads and you know supervisory roles and hiring managers and whatnot.
00:22:11 --> 00:22:15 I mean here you're a product owner now So getting a start like that is fine.
00:22:15 --> 00:22:21 I think it's very common as well, right but You didn't use a tool Yeah, to just say, okay, now I can do anything.
00:22:21 --> 00:22:23 It's like saying, well, look, I've got a handle now.
00:22:23 --> 00:22:24 I'm pilot.
00:22:24 --> 00:22:24 Yeah.
00:22:24 --> 00:22:25 Come on.
00:22:25 --> 00:22:27 Well, I mean, I'm kind of with her on that one is like, at least they had a tool.
00:22:27 --> 00:22:28 I had like nothing.
00:22:28 --> 00:22:29 I had a spreadsheet point.
00:22:29 --> 00:22:31 So the tool doesn't give you superpowers basically.
00:22:32 --> 00:22:34 Well, her, her tool does, so buy her tool.
00:22:34 --> 00:22:35 That's okay.
00:22:35 --> 00:22:37 I haven't heard it yet, but I will get that.
00:22:37 --> 00:22:37 I'm getting that.
00:22:37 --> 00:22:37 Is it?
00:22:37 --> 00:22:42 Her claim to fame is that she's behind a chat PRD as a founder or a creator or something.
00:22:43 --> 00:22:51 I figured the whole talk would be as a backdrop of like how chat PRD can empower you if you just forget everything messages are already there and I received those.
00:22:52 --> 00:22:53 But, Cody got blocked.
00:22:53 --> 00:23:01 He was building a product, and he was part of a triad, and design had four other priorities, and Cody was blocked.
00:23:02 --> 00:23:13 And instead of saying, I'm blocked, and I'm a marketer, and I'm an engineering prototyper, and I'm like kind of a product manager, just learning how to do it now, and crying, he learned how to be a designer.
00:23:13 --> 00:23:18 So he started using v0.dev to actually build wireframes.
00:23:18 --> 00:23:19 These aren't even wireframes.
00:23:19 --> 00:23:29 Build beautiful designs and prototypes for his product as part of his package of requirements to the team.
00:23:30 --> 00:23:34 And now, I mean bless him, he's starting to do PRs for front end code.
00:23:34 --> 00:23:36 I mean, this guy is out of control.
00:23:36 --> 00:23:41 And what I think you need to think about is these are the kind of people that are going to come for product jobs.
00:23:41 --> 00:23:43 So he's, he's a front end engineer.
00:23:44 --> 00:23:44 He's a front, yeah.
00:23:45 --> 00:23:45 Remember this discussion?
00:23:46 --> 00:23:47 You don't just need to be a scrum master.
00:23:47 --> 00:23:48 You need to contribute to the team.
00:23:48 --> 00:23:52 You need to be a requirements person, a BA.
00:23:52 --> 00:23:54 You can do, maybe you can do front end work in architectural design.
00:23:54 --> 00:23:58 And remember like arguing agile two is where this came from.
00:23:58 --> 00:24:00 Yeah, that's, that's the path to success.
00:24:00 --> 00:24:04 Remember a certain financial institution pitching that is that's the path to success.
00:24:04 --> 00:24:06 You just need to, you just need to do more.
00:24:06 --> 00:24:07 That's right.
00:24:07 --> 00:24:07 Do more.
00:24:07 --> 00:24:08 You can do anything you want.
00:24:08 --> 00:24:11 That'll keep you from getting fired by sociopaths.
00:24:11 --> 00:24:11 All right.
00:24:11 --> 00:24:13 These are the kind of people you're going to want to hire.
00:24:13 --> 00:24:18 And this is the breadth of skills that you're really going to want on your team and in yourself.
00:24:18 --> 00:24:21 And then, of course, none of that matters if it's just one person.
00:24:21 --> 00:24:23 If it's just a Cody, as we say.
00:24:23 --> 00:24:26 You have to multiply your impact by teaching the team.
00:24:26 --> 00:24:32 So we actually have a project building with AI channel at launch darkly where every day we're sharing different ways.
00:24:32 --> 00:24:35 We're automating ourselves, asking for help building things.
00:24:35 --> 00:24:37 And it's the most exciting channel.
00:24:38 --> 00:24:49 And I post all the time, things that I build, because I think as a product leader, you have to normalize using these tools to accelerate and build skills so that people don't feel so bashful about it.
00:24:49 --> 00:24:51 You also have to fund it, but we'll get to that in a minute.
00:24:51 --> 00:24:52 Well, good.
00:24:52 --> 00:24:53 I'm glad we didn't leave that out.
00:24:54 --> 00:24:54 Yeah, I know.
00:24:54 --> 00:24:55 That's slightly important.
00:24:55 --> 00:24:58 You can ask for help anytime you want, but also get that stuff done.
00:24:58 --> 00:25:00 And you work 40 hours.
00:25:00 --> 00:25:02 Well, there's weekends, too.
00:25:02 --> 00:25:03 So get that done already.
00:25:03 --> 00:25:08 Great expectations are kind of useless if our funding doesn't back up our words.
00:25:08 --> 00:25:10 You know, our actions don't back up our words.
00:25:10 --> 00:25:10 Yeah.
00:25:10 --> 00:25:11 That's what I'm saying.
00:25:11 --> 00:25:12 So glad you said that.
00:25:12 --> 00:25:17 So this is what I think it takes to be an AI powered PM and an AI powered product team.
00:25:17 --> 00:25:21 And I think this is how we get to this world where product world takes less time.
00:25:22 --> 00:25:23 So you can spend more time with users.
00:25:23 --> 00:25:25 It takes less thought.
00:25:25 --> 00:25:29 So you can actually be more creative with the time that you have.
00:25:29 --> 00:25:31 I don't agree with less thought.
00:25:31 --> 00:25:33 She meant less distracted.
00:25:33 --> 00:25:35 She meant less, lessen the cognitive load.
00:25:35 --> 00:25:37 So you can be more focused and more creative on the few things.
00:25:37 --> 00:25:38 That's what she meant.
00:25:38 --> 00:25:39 That makes sense.
00:25:39 --> 00:25:40 That's what she meant.
00:25:40 --> 00:25:41 And then has less PMs.
00:25:41 --> 00:25:42 Wait, hold on.
00:25:42 --> 00:25:43 I don't think y'all are going to like this.
00:25:43 --> 00:25:46 I think maybe we want to talk about this one.
00:25:47 --> 00:25:58 And this is one of my strongly held beliefs about the art of product management, which I've made a career out of, is I think AI will collapse the talent stack.
00:25:58 --> 00:26:03 So what I mean is, these jobs that have been separate will start to become one.
00:26:03 --> 00:26:06 And that's really scary, and it's a big change.
00:26:06 --> 00:26:10 But I don't believe, and my experience has been, it doesn't have to break your team.
00:26:11 --> 00:26:12 So first, a quick exercise.
00:26:12 --> 00:26:15 God, I'm trying to do arm raising exercises and you're all giving me nothing.
00:26:15 --> 00:26:16 So, come along with me.
00:26:16 --> 00:26:20 How many of you have given an update in Slack this week?
00:26:21 --> 00:26:22 My God, no one's working, man.
00:26:22 --> 00:26:22 Okay.
00:26:23 --> 00:26:26 How many of you have written a document this week?
00:26:26 --> 00:26:27 Okay, we're all writing documents.
00:26:27 --> 00:26:28 Alright.
00:26:28 --> 00:26:31 How many of you have done a design this week?
00:26:31 --> 00:26:31 A few.
00:26:32 --> 00:26:33 How many of you have written code this week?
00:26:33 --> 00:26:36 How many of you have deployed code to production this week?
00:26:36 --> 00:26:37 Okay.
00:26:37 --> 00:26:39 That's those, those, those five people.
00:26:39 --> 00:26:40 That's what's coming for us.
00:26:40 --> 00:26:44 So before we really You wanna get on that?
00:26:44 --> 00:26:46 You gotta deploy code to them to get ahead in product management.
00:26:46 --> 00:26:48 Written code and deployed code.
00:26:48 --> 00:26:50 So, fire all your team.
00:26:50 --> 00:26:51 You don't need them.
00:26:51 --> 00:26:52 You can do this.
00:26:52 --> 00:26:56 And ChatGPT or whatever she's peddling can help you get there faster.
00:26:56 --> 00:26:59 Well, and in fact, I would argue ChatGPT can't help you deploy code either.
00:27:00 --> 00:27:07 If you've ever had it generate code for you so the it's first of all only, cause we just finished the podcast on, what phase is your software?
00:27:07 --> 00:27:13 And I'm like, if you're in this pre MVP, like pre market fit phase, I'm, I'm with her.
00:27:13 --> 00:27:13 Sure.
00:27:13 --> 00:27:13 A hundred percent.
00:27:13 --> 00:27:14 Everyone does everything.
00:27:14 --> 00:27:16 I've got no pro everyone does everything.
00:27:16 --> 00:27:16 Yep.
00:27:16 --> 00:27:17 You go into the growth phase.
00:27:18 --> 00:27:20 I mean, these, we had a name for this in the 2000s development.
00:27:20 --> 00:27:22 These were the cowboy developers.
00:27:22 --> 00:27:25 Remember like cowboy developers could get in right requirements.
00:27:25 --> 00:27:26 Cowboy developers can do use interviews.
00:27:27 --> 00:27:30 Cowboy developers can you know, like oh yeah, absolutely.
00:27:30 --> 00:27:42 Yeah, they could make screen designs And they usually would they would draw out on the whiteboard Push the tech writer and the designer out of the way and be like i'll show you how the screen's gotta be written This is what I think Those are the people we prize.
00:27:42 --> 00:27:43 That's what we're saying here.
00:27:43 --> 00:27:44 Oh my God.
00:27:44 --> 00:27:47 I know it's not that simple and I'm being ridiculous, but.
00:27:47 --> 00:27:54 But still though, the general direction of where she's going is that product people will do all of these things going forward, right?
00:27:55 --> 00:28:07 Arguing agile 120 did Airbnb fire all their product managers that we did that podcast where we listened to Brian Chesky say I, I don't need product managers unless they can market a feature.
00:28:07 --> 00:28:12 But the full end to end, so she hasn't mentioned that her, her background is in marketing.
00:28:12 --> 00:28:13 I checked, right.
00:28:13 --> 00:28:18 She hasn't mentioned anything about the product manager being involved in the marketing of the feature, which is interesting to me.
00:28:18 --> 00:28:18 So like.
00:28:18 --> 00:28:28 If you seem to be pushing towards more technical, not, not the job role, technical product manager, but saying product managers should go deeper in their technical expertise.
00:28:28 --> 00:28:32 You actually haven't gone down the side to say of like, are they business leaders?
00:28:32 --> 00:28:35 Like, should they what about their chops with the business?
00:28:35 --> 00:29:04 Because I only bring that up because I have gotten feedback in my career that has steered me to say, Brian, you can check in code and you can be contributing stuff into repos you could be working and checking stuff in, but before you put your hands on code, you really need to ask yourself, is that where the business needs you, or does the business need you constructing and flying these strategies and keeping teams on track and coordinating and, you know what I mean, like between operational and business leadership, there's enough work there.
00:29:04 --> 00:29:04 Yeah.
00:29:04 --> 00:29:12 We don't need you in the tactical, in the code level, because that is the path to work in 72 hours a week or whatever.
00:29:12 --> 00:29:14 Like Well, and, also, why did they hire you in the first place?
00:29:14 --> 00:29:35 and also, what is happening in the business where I am, I'm doing all that, and the business is not responding to saying well, I can't believe my product manager is, Doing all this business leadership stuff and this marketing stuff and this future strategy development stuff and coordinating with all the customers and they're in the code like At some point the business has to turn around be like we've failed these people we need to get more people.
00:29:35 --> 00:29:36 We need to rebalance.
00:29:36 --> 00:29:40 We need to do something like Is the business doing nothing while I'm doing all this stuff because spoiler alert.
00:29:40 --> 00:29:45 I'm already this, this ideal, this, these five people with their hand up, like I'm in the crowd, that's me.
00:29:45 --> 00:29:59 So only five is a small percentage of people I mean if if you're doing all of those things that she's suggesting you do You're not doing any of them well, because you cannot spread yourself that thin you don't have vertical experience in Well, certainly not development.
00:30:00 --> 00:30:07 She said that but You know, deploying code and all of those things, you can automate the heck out of those things too, but you shouldn't be the one doing it.
00:30:07 --> 00:30:12 You should be the one making sure your teams are moving along those lines.
00:30:12 --> 00:30:12 Let's automate.
00:30:12 --> 00:30:13 Let's do this.
00:30:13 --> 00:30:13 Let's do that.
00:30:14 --> 00:30:15 I'm okay with that.
00:30:15 --> 00:30:16 I'm not okay with this.
00:30:17 --> 00:30:19 One person, unicorn that does everything.
00:30:19 --> 00:30:21 I don't know if that's going to fly.
00:30:21 --> 00:30:22 Well, let's see where she goes with it.
00:30:22 --> 00:30:22 Sure.
00:30:23 --> 00:30:34 Love this idea of the product triad, this product engineering design, these leads, maybe you had, instead of a stool, you had a table, you got data in there surrounded by supporting engineering and design resources.
00:30:34 --> 00:30:41 I think this is what has been classically the platonic ideal of a product team for quite some time.
00:30:41 --> 00:30:47 And I think what's, it's the Marty Cagan designer engineer product person.
00:30:47 --> 00:30:53 The Holy Trinity, as I say, with this is because they're all separate product operates as a handoff mechanism.
00:30:53 --> 00:30:57 I'm going to hand off design's going to hand off things to engineering.
00:30:57 --> 00:31:03 I'm going to make sure they know engineering manager is going to Hand off things to engineering and they're going to make sure that they know things.
00:31:03 --> 00:31:08 And it means you stay really hands off with what actually gets built.
00:31:09 --> 00:31:12 And so what I think we're moving to now is more of this generalist specialists.
00:31:12 --> 00:31:22 So you have specialists in product design and engineering, but at least in my organization, they're really expected to participate across the building process.
00:31:22 --> 00:31:24 They're expected to do.
00:31:24 --> 00:31:30 The work that needs to get done to move the project forward and the operating principle that we embrace at launch darkly.
00:31:30 --> 00:31:35 We call this there are no lanes, so you know there's like stay in your lane and we're like there are no lanes.
00:31:35 --> 00:31:41 If there's something to get done and you have the skill to do it culturally, we embrace getting it done.
00:31:41 --> 00:31:50 this must be a Silicon Valley, like culture thing because nowhere else are they like, Oh, I'm going to hand stuff over to engineering and they take it and they run with it.
00:31:50 --> 00:31:51 I'm going to hand stuff over to design and I don't have that.
00:31:51 --> 00:32:03 Transparency into what they're doing and I don't know that they got four priorities ahead of me or whatever Like the like I have a team my team is encompass of people of all these disciplines and we all together get stuff done That's exactly right.
00:32:03 --> 00:32:13 I'm kind of surprised that she he's suggesting this now, you know I haven't got this far into the podcast, but I agree with the principle that those circles On the Venn diagram should be overlapping.
00:32:13 --> 00:32:16 I say they should be overlapping more than what she's showing here.
00:32:16 --> 00:32:23 I'm okay with that You you know, so if she's saying generalist specialists, they're still specialists first.
00:32:23 --> 00:32:26 They're just reaching across the aisle and saying, let's work together right.
00:32:26 --> 00:32:26 Yeah.
00:32:26 --> 00:32:29 So we're getting rid of that siloism that we often talk about.
00:32:29 --> 00:32:30 It's also interesting.
00:32:30 --> 00:32:35 It's also interesting that she's pointing out the, the, the, like the concept of general, like I understand what you're saying with generalists.
00:32:35 --> 00:32:36 Cause you're all sitting on the same team.
00:32:36 --> 00:32:37 You have specialties anyway.
00:32:37 --> 00:32:44 but the, the backlash against generalists in product management Has been pretty severe in the last couple of years.
00:32:44 --> 00:32:46 So it's interesting that she's pushing in that direction.
00:32:46 --> 00:32:53 Anyway, maybe this is a Silicon Valley, like a return to sanity or the way the rest of the world has been working, but I don't know.
00:32:53 --> 00:32:55 Well, let's, let's see what happens now.
00:32:55 --> 00:33:02 And I think even this kind of freaks people out because people like their lanes, they like to know products, excellent product stuff.
00:33:02 --> 00:33:03 So they're going to product things.
00:33:03 --> 00:33:06 And design is great at design stuff and they're going to design things.
00:33:06 --> 00:33:09 And it gets really uncomfortable where you say, well, probably it can do.
00:33:09 --> 00:33:15 Bang up job at design and design actually knows how to push react code and engineering.
00:33:15 --> 00:33:17 Could you please just write a PRD yourself?
00:33:17 --> 00:33:18 You know what we need to do.
00:33:19 --> 00:33:23 And so I think this already freaks people out, but this, this really freaks people out.
00:33:23 --> 00:33:25 So this is what I think is coming for us very soon.
00:33:25 --> 00:33:29 I think you're going to see what I would call an AI power triple threat.
00:33:29 --> 00:33:30 Basically.
00:33:31 --> 00:33:42 She just keeps sprinkling in AI when it's like not necessary, like every one of these people can use AI and also like Marty Cagan pioneered this in Inspired he named it fully durable teams.
00:33:42 --> 00:33:52 So you your team should have all these three people on them It's not like that not your company has these three people or groups of these three people It's on the team stuff hands off off to the other ones when you need their expertise.
00:33:52 --> 00:34:00 No, they live on the team And maybe the case here is they should be working together to kind of cross pollinate and teach each other the skills.
00:34:00 --> 00:34:08 Have I just been working on agile teams too long where I just expect that the team should be teaching each other and it's like, not teaching each other is weird to me.
00:34:08 --> 00:34:10 Maybe, maybe the rest of the world is like.
00:34:10 --> 00:34:11 Fully against that.
00:34:11 --> 00:34:20 I'd like to talk to her more about the, the, the reasons behind that, like what she's experienced in her career, I was going to say, it might be the teams that she's worked on.
00:34:20 --> 00:34:21 Yeah yeah.
00:34:21 --> 00:34:21 Okay.
00:34:21 --> 00:34:31 One person that can do engineering design product as a lead of a team, which includes AI tools, agents, and platforms.
00:34:31 --> 00:34:32 As part of that team.
00:34:32 --> 00:34:34 And I think this is what we're going to hire for.
00:34:34 --> 00:34:38 And what's really interesting is they may spike in engineering.
00:34:38 --> 00:34:40 They may spike in classic product management.
00:34:40 --> 00:34:44 They may spike in design, but they're going to need to know how to do it all.
00:34:44 --> 00:34:45 And that triad goes away.
00:34:45 --> 00:34:52 And what I think is really interesting about the triad going away is I think we all believe that small teams can generally move faster than big teams.
00:34:53 --> 00:34:56 I kind of believe individuals can move faster than small teams.
00:34:56 --> 00:34:59 And so this is kind of an, well, that's, that's a hundred percent true.
00:34:59 --> 00:35:00 I'll tell you right now.
00:35:00 --> 00:35:01 Absolutely.
00:35:01 --> 00:35:03 That's the Chinese proverb.
00:35:03 --> 00:35:04 Like if you want to go fast, go alone.
00:35:05 --> 00:35:07 Like here's, I'll tell you how that breaks out though.
00:35:07 --> 00:35:12 Is that you on your small team, you you produce a bunch of garbage code through chat GPT.
00:35:12 --> 00:35:16 And what ends up happening is you need to call on development to do debugging.
00:35:16 --> 00:35:20 So your, your developers become less peers writing code and they become like.
00:35:21 --> 00:35:24 Coders, or actually they're not even coders anymore, they're debuggers.
00:35:24 --> 00:35:29 So you check your stuff in and then the debuggers in India will debug it overnight.
00:35:29 --> 00:35:32 And then, you know what I mean, like that, that's, that's what this actually leads to.
00:35:32 --> 00:35:35 That's exactly right, but the debuggers are cheap.
00:35:35 --> 00:35:38 She hasn't implemented this, but she she's throwing it out of like buy my product.
00:35:38 --> 00:35:41 It's AI enabled everything, hype, hype, hype , I've seen this.
00:35:41 --> 00:35:45 As a real concept of like, well, Jerry knows how to write code well enough.
00:35:45 --> 00:35:52 Cause he did it in Java eight years ago, and now he can build react interfaces with some other what are you talking about?
00:35:52 --> 00:35:53 What are you talking about?
00:35:53 --> 00:35:54 Jerry, get out of here, Jerry.
00:35:54 --> 00:35:55 She's just yeah.
00:35:55 --> 00:35:57 So she's obviously painting the promise for that tool.
00:35:58 --> 00:35:59 Yeah, yeah, it's great.
00:35:59 --> 00:35:59 Yeah.
00:35:59 --> 00:36:01 AI enabled agents.
00:36:01 --> 00:36:06 Yeah, talk to Eric Schmidt because he was all about he's like, oh the problem with AI is not That the models are not kind of plateauing.
00:36:06 --> 00:36:10 The problem is we're not we're not We're not putting enough energy and money into it.
00:36:10 --> 00:36:10 That's the problem.
00:36:10 --> 00:36:12 Give me more money.
00:36:15 --> 00:36:22 exercise and thinking how fast can opinionated product leadership in a small team, move things forward, given the tools that they need.
00:36:23 --> 00:36:25 And then actually, I think it's like maybe everything.
00:36:25 --> 00:36:26 So you saw those guys hiding in the corner.
00:36:26 --> 00:36:31 I mean, like who knows what we're going to pull into this vortex of this new role.
00:36:31 --> 00:36:36 But I do think product managers are also going to be expected to be more commercially oriented.
00:36:36 --> 00:36:40 Think about marketing more, use tools for data.
00:36:40 --> 00:36:43 And so maybe actually we're both dead and reanimated as everything.
00:36:44 --> 00:36:49 And it's scary people don't like this they don't like it but it doesn't yeah, of course They don't like it.
00:36:49 --> 00:36:53 It sounds like you're a one man company like doing literally everything yourself.
00:36:53 --> 00:36:55 Of course, you don't like it It sounds ridiculous.
00:36:55 --> 00:36:56 I agree.
00:36:56 --> 00:36:58 She finally mentioned marketing.
00:36:58 --> 00:37:00 So at this late in the podcast.
00:37:00 --> 00:37:21 Yeah interesting All right have to be scary I you know, I have a friend that said said this the other day I thought it was really interesting The only people that need to be worried are the people acting like they don't need to be worried which is If you can imagine this future and you say Claire's up here trying to give a talk that people tweet out, but I buy into her fundamental thesis that things are going to change dramatically.
00:37:21 --> 00:37:33 Think about how that changes for you, prepare yourself, prepare your team, change in advance and make them as you need to do to be awesome in this new era, as opposed to obsolete.
00:37:33 --> 00:37:37 The only people, that need to be worried are the people that are not worried about it, except the people that are not worried about it.
00:37:37 --> 00:37:43 Are the people that have been on this hype train before many, many times over and have all the actual skills that she's talking about.
00:37:43 --> 00:37:44 That's why they're not worried.
00:37:44 --> 00:37:49 The problem with those people is they'll never show up at your Silicon Valley companies because you never hire anyone over 40 years old.
00:37:49 --> 00:37:50 So that's right.
00:37:50 --> 00:37:52 Oh man, that's so much true.
00:37:52 --> 00:37:58 Now, what you are looking for is this mid 20 year old professional who you're going to hire, who doesn't actually have any of these skills.
00:37:58 --> 00:38:07 But you're going to put them in the role where they're creating code using AI agents, pushing stuff out and expecting because they're in the position that they will deliver, that they will deliver.
00:38:07 --> 00:38:08 That'll be gone in a year.
00:38:08 --> 00:38:12 And so I think about this, AI will never do this thing is super naive.
00:38:12 --> 00:38:25 But AI can help me do anything is really inspiring and it gets me amped up about how we've gotten some nods Gets me really amped up about what is possible to build and put in the market and create and I just think that's so thrilling okay.
00:38:25 --> 00:38:28 And then this is the last part, which is product leaders.
00:38:28 --> 00:38:29 AI is coming for you too.
00:38:29 --> 00:38:30 So you're like, yeah, yeah.
00:38:30 --> 00:38:31 Product managers.
00:38:31 --> 00:38:33 Let's just get them to do a whole bunch more stuff with less headcount.
00:38:33 --> 00:38:34 That sounds great.
00:38:34 --> 00:38:35 Yeah.
00:38:35 --> 00:38:39 And then all the SaaS providers are like, yeah, AI agents, my tools, your solution.
00:38:39 --> 00:38:39 They love it.
00:38:39 --> 00:38:41 But it's never coming for us, right?
00:38:41 --> 00:38:43 There's never going to be an AI CPO.
00:38:43 --> 00:38:44 No, no, no.
00:38:44 --> 00:38:45 It's coming for you too.
00:38:45 --> 00:38:48 And I think we all need to be really prepared for this change.
00:38:48 --> 00:38:51 And so first thing is we need to be prepared to manage whatever the hell this thing is.
00:38:52 --> 00:38:58 I mean, this is totally different than what most of us are thinking about in terms of what our teams are.
00:38:58 --> 00:39:00 And I think this means that we have to get more.
00:39:00 --> 00:39:04 She's showing the overlapping of all the different disciplines where they all should be on one team.
00:39:04 --> 00:39:06 And she's driving towards one person's doing it.
00:39:06 --> 00:39:09 Even if they're AI assist enabled, one person's doing it.
00:39:09 --> 00:39:12 It's, It's not a lot different than what happens now.
00:39:12 --> 00:39:18 So it's commercial skills in our teams, especially for my friends out there in B2B enterprise, more technical skills.
00:39:18 --> 00:39:21 We are going to be expected to manage people who code.
00:39:21 --> 00:39:22 I'm a CPTO.
00:39:22 --> 00:39:24 Basically, it's already happening.
00:39:24 --> 00:39:27 I'm seeing more and more of us that are bringing these functions together.
00:39:27 --> 00:39:32 When more and more of the individuals have shared, shared skills, you're gonna have to think about how you manage that.
00:39:32 --> 00:39:42 You're going to have to think about budgeting for headcount versus budgeting for agents and tools and how that changes how you think about the investment in R& D that you're making.
00:39:42 --> 00:39:43 Is that a different way of thinking?
00:39:44 --> 00:39:46 Budgeting for headcount, isn't that how we always budget?
00:39:46 --> 00:39:55 Yeah, but well, budgeting for head count versus budgeting for tools it's just called budgeting and it doesn't matter if you're like, Oh, I need this much to support servers on AWS.
00:39:55 --> 00:39:59 So this budget goes to pay for AWS versus this budget goes to pay for people.
00:39:59 --> 00:40:01 I don't think that that's different line items.
00:40:01 --> 00:40:05 Also I'm trying to keep this podcast short and to the point, failed.
00:40:05 --> 00:40:12 And I don't want to get into the comment where chief technology and product together under one banner.
00:40:12 --> 00:40:17 Something I don't know, something doesn't pass a sniff test about that one and I want to dig into it, but I don't want to dig into it.
00:40:17 --> 00:40:18 Let's save it for another one.
00:40:18 --> 00:40:18 Alright.
00:40:18 --> 00:40:19 Yep.
00:40:19 --> 00:40:32 And then I'm saying we're going to have these artisanal each crack because like it's sorry I said I wasn't gonna do it Because this this person has never been a developer So it, it's, it says it's easy to develop using these tools, which I've heard.
00:40:32 --> 00:40:35 It's easy to develop from a lot of people in my career who've never, never been developers.
00:40:35 --> 00:40:38 Actually, you know what else I've heard from people in my career?
00:40:38 --> 00:40:40 Like QA is just checking, checking boxes, right?
00:40:40 --> 00:40:41 Just checking features.
00:40:41 --> 00:40:42 That's all QA is.
00:40:42 --> 00:40:44 So anybody can do that.
00:40:44 --> 00:40:46 I don't need, I don't need talented professionals.
00:40:46 --> 00:40:47 I can just get anybody to do that.
00:40:47 --> 00:40:49 Why would I need experience?
00:40:50 --> 00:40:52 And automation engineers are completely different than QA.
00:40:52 --> 00:40:53 They don't need QA.
00:40:53 --> 00:40:56 Experience to do QA automation, right?
00:40:56 --> 00:41:15 I've heard a lot of real not well thought out crafted arguments in my career maybe we'll tackle that one on a future podcast. I don't think people want to hear me rant for 45 minutes about Ridiculousness crafted team topologies, which is basically like the team is going to be built for the thing that needs to get done.
00:41:15 --> 00:41:20 We can't all be prescriptive about the triad is the only way to get something done.
00:41:20 --> 00:41:22 I say, but organized around motivated individuals.
00:41:23 --> 00:41:28 If somebody comes in with this globule shape of skills, I'm going to want to build a team around them.
00:41:28 --> 00:41:31 It was somebody spikes on product and I need that skill on a team.
00:41:31 --> 00:41:32 I'm going to build that team around them.
00:41:33 --> 00:41:38 And we're going to have to get really creative with how we design teams in order to be successful.
00:41:38 --> 00:41:41 The other thing I would think about is your experience and your strategy.
00:41:41 --> 00:41:44 Remember my minivan story is becoming a commodity.
00:41:44 --> 00:41:50 So this is a great article in Lenny's newsletter about how close is AI to replacing product managers.
00:41:50 --> 00:41:53 The punchline here is they had like two visions.
00:41:53 --> 00:41:54 The AI generated one.
00:41:54 --> 00:41:59 One because of quality, even though people knew it was AI.
00:41:59 --> 00:42:05 And so I think just thinking about like how special is all that hard thinking is really important.
00:42:05 --> 00:42:16 And so I think you need to skill up and build a moat around what you can bring to the table and what you might be able to bring to the table is running and building and scaling these AI powered teams.
00:42:16 --> 00:42:18 And it's going to happen really fast.
00:42:18 --> 00:42:19 So start now.
00:42:19 --> 00:42:23 The reason why I have the dancing bunny emojis is I sat next to the CEO.
00:42:23 --> 00:42:25 You would have never guessed wasn't from a.
00:42:26 --> 00:42:30 Fancy tech forward company was sort of like non tech company.
00:42:30 --> 00:42:31 And he was sitting there and said, what are you doing?
00:42:31 --> 00:42:33 He's like, Oh, I'm building my digital twin.
00:42:33 --> 00:42:38 And I don't let anybody in the company ask me questions till they asked my digital twin a question.
00:42:38 --> 00:42:41 And I was like, this guy's got a digital twin.
00:42:41 --> 00:42:42 I don't have a digital twin.
00:42:42 --> 00:42:47 And so it really made me think it's going to happen fast and I'm even behind.
00:42:47 --> 00:42:49 So you really need to start now.
00:42:49 --> 00:42:52 So here's the TLDR on reanimating products.
00:42:52 --> 00:42:52 I'm sorry.
00:42:53 --> 00:42:53 I killed it.
00:42:53 --> 00:42:56 You really need to become an AI powered product team.
00:42:56 --> 00:42:59 Now, AI is going to collapse the talent stack.
00:42:59 --> 00:43:01 There are five people here apparently that have already done it.
00:43:01 --> 00:43:07 But care for your culture, care for your organization, plan accordingly, and it will be fine.
00:43:07 --> 00:43:09 And then product leaders is coming for you too.
00:43:09 --> 00:43:15 So join me in thinking what that three to five year future can look like and manifest it in your team.
00:43:16 --> 00:43:19 And so if I have any advice to you, it's go find those AI powered triple threats.
00:43:20 --> 00:43:22 Give them power and give them budget.
00:43:22 --> 00:43:24 I think you'll be really really happy.
00:43:24 --> 00:43:24 You did.
00:43:25 --> 00:43:26 Thank you so much.
00:43:26 --> 00:43:27 I really appreciate it All right.
00:43:27 --> 00:43:32 I'm gonna turn off the video and Move to what did you learn from that?
00:43:32 --> 00:43:37 besides besides the age old We're going to do more with less people.
00:43:37 --> 00:43:43 I learned that a product person can do everything as long as they have the right AI powered tool set.
00:43:43 --> 00:43:46 And I also learned of one such tool set that she mentioned.
00:43:47 --> 00:43:49 The one that she basically, yeah.
00:43:49 --> 00:43:49 Yeah.
00:43:49 --> 00:43:54 So some of the thinking behind this is already out there.
00:43:54 --> 00:43:57 This is not, this is not revolutionary for me.
00:43:58 --> 00:44:01 I could even say, to a large degree, this is not evolutionary either, really.
00:44:01 --> 00:44:05 I mean, were teams built for a purpose, right, for the product?
00:44:05 --> 00:44:06 That's not new.
00:44:06 --> 00:44:07 That's been around for a long time.
00:44:08 --> 00:44:18 What I think I did learn that was new for me here is product people really need to get up to speed with AI using AI to their benefit, right?
00:44:19 --> 00:44:20 But then that applies to everybody.
00:44:20 --> 00:44:23 She is in product space, so she's talking about that.
00:44:23 --> 00:44:24 Fair enough.
00:44:24 --> 00:44:27 I don't know if it needed to be a whole, however long that was.
00:44:27 --> 00:44:27 20 minutes.
00:44:27 --> 00:44:28 20 minutes.
00:44:28 --> 00:44:31 So that, that message could have been delivered much quicker.
00:44:31 --> 00:44:32 But that's what I learned.
00:44:33 --> 00:44:35 I'm sorry, I completely spaced on what you learned out of that.
00:44:35 --> 00:44:40 Listen, listen, what I learned is you can fire everybody and just have product people doing everything.
00:44:40 --> 00:44:40 Yeah.
00:44:40 --> 00:44:40 Okay?
00:44:40 --> 00:44:41 Yeah.
00:44:41 --> 00:44:42 Build the software.
00:44:42 --> 00:44:45 Do the recon beforehand.
00:44:45 --> 00:44:50 They weren't, they weren't product people because they, she went and got a developer that was working in marketing somehow.
00:44:50 --> 00:44:55 So I I learned that Wow, i'm so far ahead of silicon valley Yes, there is that too, right?
00:44:56 --> 00:45:00 So amazing things happen in silicon valley I mean, it really makes me call on a question.
00:45:00 --> 00:45:13 These folks that are out there kind of you know Instagramming product management, to the world, and trying to be the face product management wow, man, like amazing like they they You know, they, they think that doing a wireframe yourself is magic.
00:45:13 --> 00:45:14 Which is crazy.
00:45:14 --> 00:45:16 It is for a lot of people I imagine, right?
00:45:16 --> 00:45:17 It's bold for me.
00:45:17 --> 00:45:19 They're not technical necessarily enough to do that.
00:45:19 --> 00:45:22 So, a lot of times people don't do that, right?
00:45:22 --> 00:45:24 I don't know of any people that don't do that.
00:45:24 --> 00:45:32 I know people that can do pretty much as you described, maybe not to the same degree as you because you're technical, but at least come up with first, second sketches, right?
00:45:32 --> 00:45:39 And then, then engage somebody who's like a UX person to take it further, or at least a UI person, right?
00:45:39 --> 00:45:45 So what she's describing, the current status quo of product management, I don't think that's real.
00:45:45 --> 00:45:46 Maybe it's real in Silicon Valley.
00:45:46 --> 00:45:49 Yeah, I was gonna say, I think it's real in Silicon Valley.
00:45:49 --> 00:45:51 I think that is a very real part of the culture.
00:45:51 --> 00:45:57 like we mentioned earlier, I mean, Silicon Valley, they want the hot young people coming out of the Ivy Leagues.
00:45:57 --> 00:46:02 They want to bring them in, and they want them to be independent contributors and what not, and that's just not possible.
00:46:02 --> 00:46:07 All they can really do is write documents and then go ask somebody who really knows what's going on to implement things and to fix things.
00:46:07 --> 00:46:20 You know, all the holes in what they're doing and, and, and really the documents they're creating and contributing as PRDs are really not good cause they have no, you're taking it like product management is, is just like being a scrum master or somebody coming out and getting their certification, calling themselves an enterprise coach.
00:46:20 --> 00:46:21 Like that's just not possible.
00:46:21 --> 00:46:27 I mean, it's, there is a certain amount of seniority and lived in experience to be really good.
00:46:27 --> 00:46:32 At that job and Yeah, you can't you can't get you don't have thought that in b schools, right?
00:46:32 --> 00:46:43 Yeah, so I agree that that culture is kind of pushing back the culture is kind of grinding and figuring that out And again, you have like the arguing agile 120 with brian with brian chesky You know, the prd was 123.
00:46:43 --> 00:46:54 I think 120 was brian chesky You have stuff like well like we covered in 120 where he's like well these these people all they do is kind of You Push their PRD paper around all day on the desk and you know, I, I don't need that.
00:46:54 --> 00:46:58 I need people to build a roadmap and create and shepherd along impactful features.
00:46:58 --> 00:47:00 And these people are incapable of doing it.
00:47:00 --> 00:47:03 And I'm going to ascribe that to just the professional product management.
00:47:04 --> 00:47:11 When in reality, this is a culturally created construct localized localized to their area.
00:47:11 --> 00:47:11 Yeah.
00:47:11 --> 00:47:12 Absolutely.
00:47:12 --> 00:47:13 Interesting.
00:47:13 --> 00:47:14 So, yeah, this is fun.
00:47:14 --> 00:47:20 I'd like to follow up in a few months to see like where this product is at and how it's how it's being used, right?
00:47:20 --> 00:47:21 Chat PRD.
00:47:21 --> 00:47:25 Yeah, we will maybe I'll try to sign up and we can play with it and see what it does, you know?
00:47:26 --> 00:47:26 Sounds good.
00:47:26 --> 00:47:27 So don't do it.
00:47:27 --> 00:47:27 Don't write PRDs.
00:47:27 --> 00:47:28 That's what we're saying.
00:47:28 --> 00:47:29 That's a situation.
00:47:29 --> 00:47:31 Don't write them and start to learn how to code.
00:47:31 --> 00:47:32 That's right.
00:47:32 --> 00:47:32 Learn.
00:47:32 --> 00:47:32 Yeah.
00:47:32 --> 00:47:33 Learn and learn to code.
00:47:33 --> 00:47:35 That's not, that can't be the message.
00:47:35 --> 00:47:36 That's not going to fly.
00:47:36 --> 00:47:40 Well what will fly is every, every like and subscribe helps the podcast out.
00:47:40 --> 00:47:42 So if you're not already subscribed.
00:47:42 --> 00:47:43 Please do so.
00:47:43 --> 00:47:46 Please do so and let us know about other topics you want us to delve into.
00:47:46 --> 00:47:49 And let us know about other videos out there that we should react to.
00:47:49 --> 00:47:49 That too.
00:47:49 --> 00:47:50 Absolutely.
00:47:50 --> 00:47:53 Because we, we are equal opportunity reactors
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