Success as a platform PM requires both technical depth and exceptional emotional intelligence to navigate complex organizational dynamics...
That goes double if you work in banking or finance!
In this episode of Arguing Agile, Enterprise Business Agility Coach Om Patel and Product Manager Brian Orlando read and respond to a question from a listener who is a platform product managers at a Bank.
Getting into the nitty-gritty of platform how-to's, this episode is perfect for product managers, agile coaches, and technology leaders working in traditional industries looking to modernize their approach to platform management!
As industries embrace digital transformation (err... product operating model), platform product managers face unique challenges, including:
- How to effectively manage cross-functional relationships in siloed environments
- Strategies for prioritizing platform features that deliver organization-wide value
- Tips for reducing cognitive load across teams
- Ways to build trust and showcase value as a platform team
- Create value through standardization without weaponizing it
- Build effective cross-functional relationships
#ProductManagement #TeamTopologies #PlatformTeam #AgileLeadership #Banking #TechLeadership #ProductDevelopment #AgileCoaching
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00:00:01 --> 00:00:10 welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast, where Enterprise Business Agility Coach Om Patel and Product Manager Brian Orlando argue about product management, leadership, and business agility, so you don't have to.
00:00:11 --> 00:00:13 welcome back to the arguing agile podcast.
00:00:13 --> 00:00:16 We like to present both sides of arguments sometimes.
00:00:16 --> 00:00:18 And we like to play point and counterpoint.
00:00:18 --> 00:00:23 That's kind of the normal thing, occasionally we'll get, , , correspondence from viewers and listeners.
00:00:23 --> 00:00:28 Depending on how you get the podcast, and, , today, , we have correspondence from a friend of ours.
00:00:28 --> 00:00:29 We're not, again, we don't mention names.
00:00:29 --> 00:00:32 We're not trying to blow people out of the water on the podcast.
00:00:32 --> 00:00:36 it is a follow up on, , the podcast that we did.
00:00:37 --> 00:00:38 , I believe it was episode.
00:00:38 --> 00:00:43 177 what is a platform team roles responsibilities common mistakes?
00:00:44 --> 00:01:01 We got follow up from a viewer slash listener on that episode again Agile podcast questions at gmail arguing agile comm you can hit me up directly on LinkedIn plenty of ways to get correspondence to us , but this is one that came directly from a viewer or a listener.
00:01:01 --> 00:01:06 And, , they ask Hey, I'm a product manager and, , I'm starting with a bank.
00:01:06 --> 00:01:09 So the more traditional than a lot of tech firms, right?
00:01:09 --> 00:01:22 And I'm starting as a product manager for a platform team at the bank, not having worked as a product manager for a platform team, and their background is not one of having worked for a platform team.
00:01:22 --> 00:01:28 This particular listener heard our podcast, , on, , , arguing agile 177 about all about platform teams.
00:01:28 --> 00:01:33 , where we heavily, went back to the team topologies book, which I highly recommend.
00:01:33 --> 00:01:36 And I will go back to it on this podcast, most likely at some point.
00:01:36 --> 00:01:42 We wanted to break down, , the questions that we got, and we wanted to talk a bit more about this book.
00:01:42 --> 00:01:46 Particular subject about inheriting a platform team for the first time.
00:01:47 --> 00:01:50 Not to be confused with our other podcasts that we did.
00:01:50 --> 00:01:59 About, inheriting a product backlog, where we actually gave you real tactics to start, which I will tell you right off the bat at the start of this podcast, pause this podcast.
00:01:59 --> 00:02:06 Go back and load 189 listen to all the starting a back because that'll help you a lot It doesn't matter if it's a product teams.
00:02:06 --> 00:02:07 I'm sorry.
00:02:07 --> 00:02:15 It doesn't matter if it's a platform teams Backlog or a feature team or whatever Like those those tactics we got super tactical.
00:02:15 --> 00:02:34 I was telling somebody about 189 recently I said when we did the agenda for 189 It was much higher level than we ended up going and then when we actually started 189 Something happened with the agenda where we ended up going super low into like Real tactical level.
00:02:34 --> 00:02:36 If you're backlogs like this, do this tactic.
00:02:36 --> 00:02:38 If not, then do this other tactic.
00:02:38 --> 00:02:44 Like we got super into weeds, but I found a lot of people would find that helpful because they find themselves in the weeds, right?
00:02:44 --> 00:02:46 Not being able to see daylight.
00:02:46 --> 00:03:01 And also there's a lot of like, I see this When I read posts on Reddit and when I see, , posts on LinkedIn and stuff like that, but once I get over that, I have to say not a lot of people are giving you real tactical try this in this way, and if it doesn't work, do this other thing.
00:03:01 --> 00:03:02 Like, they're not giving you that kind of advice.
00:03:02 --> 00:03:08 They're giving you this kind of high level, you know 30, 000 foot overview kind of advice.
00:03:08 --> 00:03:11 And, I don't know, for someone like this That's not super useful.
00:03:11 --> 00:03:18 so we did one 89 since this comment came in, go listen to one 89.
00:03:18 --> 00:03:20 Hopefully that'll help you in addition to this podcast.
00:03:20 --> 00:03:23 I want to start with the structure of the org that they are in.
00:03:23 --> 00:03:24 So they are, they've been brought in.
00:03:24 --> 00:03:30 Or promoted as a product manager, they've been promoted or newly joined a bank, right?
00:03:30 --> 00:03:34 You know as a product manager for a platform team, that's the scenario, right?
00:03:34 --> 00:03:39 the point of the platform team, let's cut back to 189 Let's cut back to team to Aussies for a second.
00:03:39 --> 00:03:51 The point of the platform team is to enable basic services For other development teams in the organization to be able to do their work easier and consistently, right?
00:03:51 --> 00:03:53 So people aren't doing things differently.
00:03:54 --> 00:04:05 They're reaching into those backlogs and taking cognitive load off of those streamline teams to make it easier for them to deliver their value streams.
00:04:05 --> 00:04:07 That's the point of the platform team.
00:04:07 --> 00:04:18 So they're like, you could be a platform team that re imagines technology, reinvigorates product lines builds technical architecture in front of other teams and gives them modules that they can take advantage of.
00:04:18 --> 00:04:19 You could do that.
00:04:19 --> 00:04:28 Or you could just reach into product backlogs of the streamline teams and say, you know what, what you're doing here seems to be similar to what everyone else is doing.
00:04:28 --> 00:04:30 Why don't I lift that up?
00:04:30 --> 00:04:33 Duplicate backlog.
00:04:33 --> 00:04:34 You don't have to maintain it anymore.
00:04:34 --> 00:04:35 You don't have to struggle team.
00:04:35 --> 00:04:45 We're going to take that on and we're going to make it available to all the other teams in this kind of like a generalized kind of way You know, I mean more standardized.
00:04:45 --> 00:04:45 Yeah I agree.
00:04:45 --> 00:04:54 Yeah so the structure of the org that was outlined in the comment was hey my current org They have these subdivisions.
00:04:54 --> 00:04:54 It's a bank.
00:04:54 --> 00:04:56 So these shouldn't be shocking to anyone, right?
00:04:57 --> 00:05:14 compliance fraud operations customer support Mobile statements communications and identity so Some of those are very hyper focused like features or subsets Of the bank mobile makes total sense, right?
00:05:15 --> 00:05:18 Operations fraud compliance does make total sense.
00:05:18 --> 00:05:22 So you would think any bank you go to you would see this Mobile, I can kind of nitpick.
00:05:22 --> 00:05:31 Statements, communication, identity, like those kind of functions, I sort of interpret them as silos rather than functions.
00:05:31 --> 00:05:40 Yeah, they're more almost like at the departmental level this team or this, these teams focus just on that aspect.
00:05:40 --> 00:05:40 Right.
00:05:40 --> 00:05:41 In isolation, probably.
00:05:42 --> 00:05:44 Some of these are in silos for good reason.
00:05:44 --> 00:05:46 Like identity, for example.
00:05:46 --> 00:05:51 You want a single team taking care of identity, right?
00:05:51 --> 00:05:52 This is like a zero trust thing.
00:05:52 --> 00:05:54 Like you want one team.
00:05:54 --> 00:06:02 To be giving you tools to say like, Hey, this thing you have to trust like authentication, for example, identity access management.
00:06:02 --> 00:06:03 Yeah, absolutely.
00:06:04 --> 00:06:11 Communication, that's an interesting one that is interesting because the communication and statements are two separate functions.
00:06:11 --> 00:06:14 So statements get sent to customers, but.
00:06:14 --> 00:06:22 The statement team doesn't do that, they somehow send stuff to the communications team to communicate.
00:06:22 --> 00:06:24 Yeah, that, that doesn't make sense to me.
00:06:24 --> 00:06:26 I mean, it sort of makes sense.
00:06:26 --> 00:06:36 Well, from the perspective of, having consistency in the messaging, it makes sense, but it still doesn't make sense because all really that's happening from the communications.
00:06:36 --> 00:06:41 Team is sending things out they're a delivery vehicle.
00:06:41 --> 00:06:48 any team potentially could supply them with what to deliver, but I feel like that function could be distributed locally.
00:06:48 --> 00:06:56 if we're thinking of it as like a product team, you could think of like customer support, for example, is in this list and operations in this list.
00:06:56 --> 00:07:01 Like think of customer support and operations less like a product team with the product manager.
00:07:01 --> 00:07:12 and more of like a siloed business function of like all the customer support activities have to go through the call center who's managed by the director of customer support operations or whatever.
00:07:12 --> 00:07:12 Yeah.
00:07:12 --> 00:07:14 Same thing with fraud, same thing with compliance.
00:07:14 --> 00:07:14 You know what I mean?
00:07:15 --> 00:07:15 Yeah.
00:07:15 --> 00:07:19 They're more siloed operations more than they are cross functional.
00:07:20 --> 00:07:21 Definitely the case in this scenario.
00:07:21 --> 00:07:22 Yes.
00:07:22 --> 00:07:33 the interesting part here is operations, fraud, compliance, customer support, all of those, like as a starting product manager who is doing platform operations.
00:07:33 --> 00:07:38 You may end up picking up a function of any one of these things and being like, you know what?
00:07:39 --> 00:07:42 This is so important and so integral to the platform.
00:07:42 --> 00:07:51 I need to add it to my roadmap we're going to publish these web hooks for customer communication and we're going to make them available from whatever function you're in.
00:07:51 --> 00:08:00 So if you're in the statement side of the app, or if you're in the fraud side of the app or like some fraudulent activities detected cool.
00:08:00 --> 00:08:07 When fraudulent activities detected, fire off the web hook that says notify send an email to the customer.
00:08:07 --> 00:08:18 Well, the platform team is going to make a list of available web hooks, and then you, the fraud team just need to, Activate the webhook that you make a call right?
00:08:18 --> 00:08:35 Yeah, just make the call and maybe the communication team Publishes a bunch of templates and you just call like you look at the library of templates that you need and you select the template for Notifying a customer that fraud is happening on their account or whatever and we have templates available.
00:08:35 --> 00:08:37 So maybe one team just, builds templates.
00:08:38 --> 00:08:48 Maybe another team publishes all the web maybe, maybe my team, the platform team publishes all the web hooks and puts them in one place and has documentation so it's easy for all the internal teams to use.
00:08:48 --> 00:08:51 The web books again, I don't know what kind of technology they're using.
00:08:51 --> 00:08:52 I don't have to use web hooks or whatever.
00:08:52 --> 00:08:53 It doesn't matter.
00:08:53 --> 00:08:54 API is web.
00:08:54 --> 00:08:54 It doesn't matter yet.
00:08:54 --> 00:08:57 It really doesn't matter what it is, but you get the point.
00:08:57 --> 00:08:59 I've just taken things off of three different teams.
00:08:59 --> 00:09:01 Just in this example, I got the fraud team.
00:09:01 --> 00:09:04 I got the communication team and I got the statements team.
00:09:04 --> 00:09:06 I think that's the order of customer support team.
00:09:06 --> 00:09:21 I don't remember three or four teams, three or four teams, and we're not even involving like operations at this point, which clearly like a mobile or operations like clearly you can evolve the mobile team and be like, we'll just have like a mobile notification that pop up on your phone to say fraud was detected.
00:09:21 --> 00:09:25 We've looked across several roadmaps and say, Hey, you guys are all doing similar features.
00:09:25 --> 00:09:29 Why don't we make that available to everyone in the form of this API?
00:09:29 --> 00:09:31 So this is what I wanted to get.
00:09:31 --> 00:09:35 This is why I was super excited to cut this podcast.
00:09:35 --> 00:09:53 To the front of the line is because this is sort of how I got my start in product management is doing this kind of stuff is looking across all of the feature roadmaps that all the product managers have, or in my case, random people had in the company because they didn't, their product management was a joke, but, , , looking across all those roadmaps and saying, You know what?
00:09:53 --> 00:09:59 These things are shared rather than having different developers on different teams, do duplicative work.
00:09:59 --> 00:09:59 Yeah.
00:09:59 --> 00:10:00 I don't say that word very often.
00:10:00 --> 00:10:01 Duplicate.
00:10:01 --> 00:10:01 Yeah.
00:10:01 --> 00:10:01 Yeah.
00:10:01 --> 00:10:02 It's good work.
00:10:02 --> 00:10:11 , rather than do that, why don't I reduce the cognitive load on these teams and I'll just take it with my team and we'll implement it in a way where every team can just use it out of the box.
00:10:11 --> 00:10:12 Yeah.
00:10:12 --> 00:10:14 And in the process, what you're doing is you're basically.
00:10:15 --> 00:10:16 Standardizing.
00:10:16 --> 00:10:22 I'm not talking about the content so much as the technology and the way things are delivered so there's a greater chance of success.
00:10:22 --> 00:10:24 Every team is doing their own thing.
00:10:24 --> 00:10:25 Who knows, right?
00:10:25 --> 00:10:28 Who knows all the different disparate technologies that they're using.
00:10:28 --> 00:10:30 So, yeah, I agree with that.
00:10:30 --> 00:10:39 , it looks like this list of eight though is aligned around functions that the bank does as opposed to the products that's what it looks like.
00:10:39 --> 00:10:46 , that's, very banking of them to arrange themselves this way in silos that's just the way banks are.
00:10:46 --> 00:10:50 You know, it makes sense because banks came up that way.
00:10:50 --> 00:10:50 Right?
00:10:50 --> 00:10:51 They evolved that way.
00:10:52 --> 00:11:08 it does make a lot of sense what I'll do for people watching on YouTube is I'll put the categories in the middle of the screen so they can go back and visually check categories For everyone that's listening, it was compliance, fraud, operations, customer support, mobile statements, communications and identity.
00:11:08 --> 00:11:09 those are the different divisions.
00:11:10 --> 00:11:12 And again, like mobile, for example.
00:11:12 --> 00:11:15 There's a function of all six of those within mobile.
00:11:15 --> 00:11:20 So your mobile team is cross functional, meaning they're cutting across departments.
00:11:20 --> 00:11:28 So your mobile team benefits kind of from what the platform team is doing because more stuff, the platform team takes on the less stuff the mobile team's got to do.
00:11:28 --> 00:11:40 And that even assumes that your mobile team is a team of front end and back end engineers to do the actual application on the phone, mobile side of it, but also to implement backend API services or whatever.
00:11:40 --> 00:11:40 Right?
00:11:41 --> 00:11:48 Yeah so the more that the platform team does for the mobile team, the faster that mobile products or whatever can work.
00:11:48 --> 00:11:48 Right?
00:11:48 --> 00:11:48 Right.
00:11:48 --> 00:11:51 , and you know, who knows, maybe mobile products is actually like.
00:11:51 --> 00:11:56 A half a dozen like maybe, maybe we're like, , maybe we're talking about like customer savings accounts.
00:11:56 --> 00:11:58 Maybe we're also in the insurance business.
00:11:58 --> 00:11:59 Maybe we're in the loans business.
00:11:59 --> 00:12:02 Maybe we're in the home loan, auto loan, whatever kind of business.
00:12:02 --> 00:12:08 And like the mobile apps are actually like a half a dozen separate apps under one bank.
00:12:08 --> 00:12:13 So mobile, like mobile platform actually means like a ton.
00:12:13 --> 00:12:30 Maybe you have like 30 mobile developers in, in quote, mobile operations or whatever I can easily see that, but again, it will come back down to what I said earlier, which is your platform team, true platform team can kind of cut across all these categories to be like, , what is used the most?
00:12:30 --> 00:12:45 And what can I grab to make it easier that'll be the thread that goes through this whole podcast , and in order to do that, let's pretend for a second that these eight categories are, , silos, like we're saying, they have their own roadmaps, their own product managers.
00:12:45 --> 00:12:46 Directors, whatever.
00:12:47 --> 00:12:49 Let's pretend they get their own roadmaps, their own budgets.
00:12:49 --> 00:12:50 , let's bring it back to that.
00:12:50 --> 00:12:51 They got their own budgets.
00:12:51 --> 00:12:53 that's how they operate, right?
00:12:53 --> 00:12:54 Their own teams.
00:12:54 --> 00:13:02 , as the person outside of these eight silos on a platform team with a mandate from like whatever operations, or I don't know who your mandate would be CEO.
00:13:02 --> 00:13:05 I don't know who your mandate chief product, I don't know who your mandate would be from.
00:13:05 --> 00:13:09 You're basically the product manager here, or maybe the product manager and the tech lead.
00:13:09 --> 00:13:10 I don't know how big the team would be.
00:13:11 --> 00:13:18 , like your mandate here would be like attend everybody's sprint reviews or end of cycle reviews or release events, whatever they have.
00:13:18 --> 00:13:22 Cause I assume they're not the most agile departments in the world.
00:13:22 --> 00:13:27 I'm just assuming, , attend all of their release ceremonies, whatever that looks like.
00:13:28 --> 00:13:31 Learn as much as you can, absorb their documentation, and figure out what they're doing.
00:13:31 --> 00:13:36 Because your roadmap will be built off of what can you take off of them.
00:13:36 --> 00:13:37 Right.
00:13:37 --> 00:13:42 To accelerate their own individual roadmaps, but also look at it, , systems view.
00:13:42 --> 00:13:44 Across the whole bank.
00:13:44 --> 00:13:44 Yeah.
00:13:44 --> 00:13:50 To say, what can we accelerate at a organizational higher level?
00:13:50 --> 00:13:56 You know, how can we take, , the whole organization to a higher place, you know So, , sorry i'm struggling with terminology.
00:13:56 --> 00:14:04 Basically, you have to go one on one to each product manager or each team or each department, whatever it is, however, the organization is structured, right?
00:14:04 --> 00:14:06 And you have to do a lot of one on ones.
00:14:06 --> 00:14:10 So in the correspondence, this individuals indicated they did.
00:14:11 --> 00:14:12 They've already started doing that.
00:14:12 --> 00:14:20 They started doing one on ones and they started realizing that, The platform team that they're coming onto is actually kind of operating as a feature team.
00:14:21 --> 00:14:26 So I assume like some of these groups are tasking them with features that are like cross functional.
00:14:26 --> 00:14:29 Like we were talking about, Hey, you should be looking out and grabbing these things.
00:14:29 --> 00:14:34 Except sometimes, it's not like I, the product manager, am looking out and grabbing and make a business case.
00:14:34 --> 00:14:36 Why this easy to be top priority being given.
00:14:36 --> 00:14:39 Some people are pushing, Hey, you're a platform team.
00:14:39 --> 00:14:40 You've got some extra engineers.
00:14:40 --> 00:14:42 Why don't you take this thing on?
00:14:42 --> 00:14:43 They're outsourcing it to you.
00:14:43 --> 00:14:43 Internally.
00:14:44 --> 00:14:45 Get me out of that trap.
00:14:45 --> 00:14:46 Oh my God.
00:14:46 --> 00:14:48 So help me, help me deflect some of that.
00:14:48 --> 00:14:57 Like how, how can I, as the enterprise business agility coach in the room, like how can I start deflecting some of that to say like, Hey, I understand it's the highest priority for you.
00:14:58 --> 00:14:58 Right.
00:14:58 --> 00:15:03 And it might be the highest priority for the bank, have we validated that, right?
00:15:03 --> 00:15:03 Exactly.
00:15:03 --> 00:15:04 That's what I'm asking.
00:15:04 --> 00:15:12 I just want to go back to a point you made this platform team have been having discussions one on ones with those other eight teams.
00:15:12 --> 00:15:17 it might be time for those product people to all get in the room and say, what are our priorities?
00:15:17 --> 00:15:19 What do we want to get done?
00:15:19 --> 00:15:21 And the platform team can sort those through.
00:15:21 --> 00:15:23 And say, here's one.
00:15:23 --> 00:15:28 It's the most valuable right now that can service most of you or more than one.
00:15:28 --> 00:15:40 And come up with almost the prioritize list of features that they can then pick up that will reduce the, the kind of the, all this noise that they're currently experiencing, right.
00:15:40 --> 00:15:42 So I would start with that.
00:15:42 --> 00:15:45 The product people on these teams are feeling stressed and burned out.
00:15:46 --> 00:15:51 And that's because of the cognitive overload of working with All these features everywhere.
00:15:52 --> 00:15:54 So , this person has got to get their hands around this.
00:15:54 --> 00:15:57 it probably doesn't help the way they have the organization structure.
00:15:57 --> 00:16:05 It doesn't it's like, the compliance folks are over here and the fraud folks are over here and the AML folks are over here and nobody talks to each other and everybody's fighting and everything's on fire.
00:16:06 --> 00:16:13 And this is fine I've not worked at a bank in my career, but I've known people who worked at banks and , they were stressed out too.
00:16:13 --> 00:16:18 So I completely understand why people are overloaded.
00:16:18 --> 00:16:21 Theoretically people are trying to push stuff up to the platform team.
00:16:21 --> 00:16:46 Which might it might rightfully be so it might be like hey, everyone needs to take advantage of this feature Everyone needs to be able to check an account for fraud or check an account activity for fraud or have some kind of ai Or whatever that operates for that, you know Maybe that's true But the context switching like you're not going to get away from the context switching the only remedy to that is gonna have to be They'll have to reorg, but they're not going to do that quickly, right?
00:16:46 --> 00:16:46 Yes.
00:16:46 --> 00:16:50 So this person coming in as a newly minted person, right?
00:16:50 --> 00:16:54 On this team, , on the platform team, what can they do logistically?
00:16:54 --> 00:16:56 I'll cut you right to the front of the line and product management.
00:16:57 --> 00:17:01 The best thing that you can do is you can make their big list of priorities, , visible to them.
00:17:01 --> 00:17:02 Yes.
00:17:02 --> 00:17:13 So first thing, make it transparent to them, make it cut across backlogs, make it transparent, show them the prioritization list, and then go to your leadership and be brave enough to be like, this is your list.
00:17:13 --> 00:17:15 These are the most important things.
00:17:15 --> 00:17:17 This is the impact they will make.
00:17:17 --> 00:17:21 there's some homework that has to be done on your behalf before you present because you're going to get torn to shreds.
00:17:21 --> 00:17:33 Of course, yeah but, if you go in front of an executive who really is on their game and you're like, this is your list, the first thing they're going to do, and I'm glad you're here, to play devil's advocate for this.
00:17:33 --> 00:17:33 Okay.
00:17:34 --> 00:17:38 The first thing they're going to do is they're going to be like, Brian, why can't your team just work faster?
00:17:39 --> 00:17:40 You can work longer.
00:17:40 --> 00:17:41 Calm down, calm down, calm down.
00:17:41 --> 00:17:43 Now I like, are you, have you been drinking?
00:17:44 --> 00:17:45 Do you have a problem?
00:17:45 --> 00:17:46 Maybe I need to talk to you off a ledge.
00:17:46 --> 00:17:54 Like that's your, your work harder and longer is like, there's only 24 hours in a day that can only go so far.
00:17:55 --> 00:17:56 So here's your list.
00:17:56 --> 00:18:02 If you really want to chew through this list faster, you need to divide to another team.
00:18:02 --> 00:18:05 And have two teams working out of one backlog.
00:18:05 --> 00:18:18 For me as a product manager, this has always been my path to working more hours for myself because I will cry in front of the business and I will show them the, I was going to say the fruits of their labor.
00:18:18 --> 00:18:18 What is it?
00:18:18 --> 00:18:20 What is the consequences of their inaction?
00:18:20 --> 00:18:26 I will show them the consequences of trying to shortcut development team budgets and stuff like that.
00:18:27 --> 00:18:29 And they'll say, okay, Brian, we believe you.
00:18:29 --> 00:18:30 Here are more developers.
00:18:30 --> 00:18:40 and then I, as a product manager end up suffering because I get more developers and I have to divide development team two, and now I'm managing two teams as a product manager or three teams or whatever.
00:18:40 --> 00:18:42 And I'm like, Oh goodness, I'm working three.
00:18:43 --> 00:18:47 Full time day jobs , like that is a measure of success, believe it or not.
00:18:47 --> 00:18:48 It certainly is.
00:18:48 --> 00:18:58 I mean, look, one of the other things that, , as you're in front of this executive with this laundry list of things is to get their help in prioritizing that making trade offs.
00:18:58 --> 00:19:06 So go in there and say, let's together with all the other PM, divide this list into now, next, later, right?
00:19:06 --> 00:19:06 Right.
00:19:06 --> 00:19:10 And then we can see what's Priority one right now.
00:19:10 --> 00:19:11 What's next?
00:19:11 --> 00:19:11 What's later?
00:19:11 --> 00:19:12 What's never?
00:19:12 --> 00:19:16 Yeah, perhaps I will tell you like this is it's scary to do this for the first time.
00:19:17 --> 00:19:22 Oh, yeah for sure But it's very rewarding too, top five priorities one through five.
00:19:22 --> 00:19:38 That's really all you really need Because that's all you can choose At the epic level because executives don't get down to the lower level at the epic level epic meaning like a like a broad swath of work like Subject three to six weeks at a time kind of initiatives that you're rolling along.
00:19:38 --> 00:19:40 That's what I define as an epic.
00:19:40 --> 00:19:43 It could be a feature to you with whatever system you work in.
00:19:43 --> 00:19:44 I don't know what system you work in.
00:19:44 --> 00:19:46 Some people work in a system that's good.
00:19:46 --> 00:19:47 Some people work in.
00:19:50 --> 00:19:51 Sorry, I haven't done that in a while.
00:19:52 --> 00:19:52 Had to get it in.
00:19:53 --> 00:19:55 That's a, yeah, it's just, I had to get it in there.
00:19:56 --> 00:20:03 Alex gives me a million dollars every three to six podcasts that I get that in , this discussion, should not be a one and done.
00:20:03 --> 00:20:04 You're going to have to do this Again.
00:20:04 --> 00:20:16 Well, so the one to five that I said,, if you can get where your executives and get alignment on the top one through five items in terms of epic, larger buckets of work, you're good for about three months.
00:20:16 --> 00:20:18 Five, one through five, like you're, you're good like that.
00:20:18 --> 00:20:20 That's about what you can do in the quarter.
00:20:20 --> 00:20:26 So if they align with you and listen, if you go in front of 'em and you're like, Hey, I've ranked the top five items.
00:20:26 --> 00:20:28 I've gathered some market feedback.
00:20:28 --> 00:20:31 you know, I've talked to customers, you should do that before you talk to them.
00:20:31 --> 00:20:32 I've talked to some customers.
00:20:32 --> 00:20:34 This is the one through five that I think we should do.
00:20:35 --> 00:20:36 Then you bring that up to executives.
00:20:37 --> 00:20:42 You, you kind of open yourself up to a little pushback, a little argument, a little justification back and forth.
00:20:42 --> 00:20:42 No problem.
00:20:42 --> 00:20:43 That's what they want anyway.
00:20:44 --> 00:21:10 And even if some of your stuff gets moved around inside of that top five or the executives, Point out something that wasn't in that top five that maybe you missed maybe you get some blind spots because you're new and that's perfectly fine I mean trade offs are a regular part of business, but listen even if they completely shuffle your top five you've got some job security okay, and I point i'm telling you this as someone experiencing product management because you've got to bring them A list of options.
00:21:10 --> 00:21:14 You like, don't just take problems to the green field of like, these are all of our problems.
00:21:15 --> 00:21:15 Yeah.
00:21:15 --> 00:21:15 You don't want to do that.
00:21:16 --> 00:21:16 That's not good.
00:21:16 --> 00:21:20 They're going to be like, don't you like, why did I hire You, you have no sense of direction.
00:21:20 --> 00:21:24 I need someone playing on my behalf you know, and This is a big one.
00:21:24 --> 00:21:26 Like don't go in there with a bunch of problems.
00:21:26 --> 00:21:26 Sure.
00:21:26 --> 00:21:26 Yeah.
00:21:27 --> 00:21:29 Generally speaking, that's true regardless.
00:21:29 --> 00:21:30 Like it's not just this, right.
00:21:30 --> 00:21:33 Don't ever go to the executive with here's a problem.
00:21:33 --> 00:21:34 Well, here are five problems.
00:21:34 --> 00:21:38 Go in there and say, here's my attempt at trying to solve these.
00:21:38 --> 00:21:39 What do you think?
00:21:39 --> 00:21:43 So, I mean, I get the sounding slash being burnt out.
00:21:43 --> 00:21:45 I completely get that.
00:21:45 --> 00:21:52 I mean, especially people, if they're in these silos, they're already beating their heads, against the borders of the silo, they're already having a tough time.
00:21:52 --> 00:21:57 You as a platform product manager, you're already kind of cutting across silos.
00:21:57 --> 00:21:58 You have this team that isn't.
00:21:59 --> 00:22:00 Contained to one silo.
00:22:00 --> 00:22:08 So you have the ability to cross products slash silos slash departments, whatever people are going to put on you, their expectations.
00:22:08 --> 00:22:20 Cause you seem like you move faster and probably you can move faster, but that's like, you can't get bogged down in why this is like, , I don't remember what podcasts we did recently where we said, like Try to knock out those wins.
00:22:20 --> 00:22:22 Maybe it was one 89.
00:22:22 --> 00:22:26 We said like when you're new, try to knock out those wins as fast as possible.
00:22:26 --> 00:22:36 Like that, like that, that's stuff to do what you're new, over the course of time, like when you've been there a year, like it's at that point, it's not about knocking out quick wins anymore.
00:22:36 --> 00:22:43 Sometimes it is, but it's about establishing like, , you can rely on me to put stuff out on a regular cadence.
00:22:44 --> 00:22:45 That's that will be helpful.
00:22:46 --> 00:22:46 Absolutely.
00:22:46 --> 00:22:48 And resist the urge to pay favorites.
00:22:48 --> 00:22:49 Yeah.
00:22:49 --> 00:22:50 I mean be the best partner you can.
00:22:51 --> 00:22:54 Some folks are burnt out because they're just like eternally understaffed.
00:22:54 --> 00:23:01 Some management, especially when you have hardcore silos like this, , they don't know how to track metrics across the silos, across the products.
00:23:02 --> 00:23:04 They're project, not product faced.
00:23:04 --> 00:23:04 Yes.
00:23:04 --> 00:23:06 And the metrics don't really line up.
00:23:06 --> 00:23:12 So, because the metrics don't line up, the financing doesn't quite lend itself properly.
00:23:12 --> 00:23:17 Way back in episode 95 We did project led to product led with mike miller, right?
00:23:17 --> 00:23:25 I mean mike's always fun to have on the podcast , maybe that's Similar, we did new product owners and product managers in episode 86.
00:23:25 --> 00:23:27 So it's been quite a while.
00:23:27 --> 00:23:36 I'm a hundred episodes easily since we've tackled two years plus we've tackled this, this topic of let's move from project to product, you know?
00:23:36 --> 00:23:37 Very interesting.
00:23:37 --> 00:23:38 Maybe we should revisit that one.
00:23:38 --> 00:23:39 I agree.
00:23:39 --> 00:23:39 Yeah.
00:23:39 --> 00:23:40 What does good look like?
00:23:40 --> 00:23:46 That was another question that was asked in the comment is like, Hey, how do I know when I'm being successful, how do I know what good looks like?
00:23:46 --> 00:23:47 So how, how can I help?
00:23:48 --> 00:23:59 How do I know what good looks like in terms of my team and falling into good ways of working as opposed to with the silos and ineffectual ways working, how do I align with the streamline teams, you know what I mean?
00:23:59 --> 00:24:03 I kind of want to start with how do I better align with the streamline teams?
00:24:03 --> 00:24:11 Cause you can get a lot of trouble with this like, Oh, Brian, you're just looking to copy our features and more to steal our features or to take them over.
00:24:11 --> 00:24:12 Right.
00:24:12 --> 00:24:22 You know, you're looking to steal funding from us or whatever let's say for example, I've got a, I've got a feature in, , as a product manager for,, personal banking, I've got a feature.
00:24:22 --> 00:24:31 People can open accounts or whatever, and like now the platform team wants to take over the opening account feature for me, but that makes a lot of money, gets a lot of transactions, gets a lot of eyeballs.
00:24:32 --> 00:24:36 Like you're stealing my best performing feature i'm gonna resist that.
00:24:36 --> 00:24:39 Yeah, it's certainly understandable that sort of sentiment, right?
00:24:39 --> 00:24:47 But the platform team by the nature of being a platform team is best positioned To, , align between streamline teams.
00:24:47 --> 00:24:51 So I would not necessarily focus at the feature level so much.
00:24:51 --> 00:24:57 I would definitely get everybody in a room and say, let's just talk about what you're doing.
00:24:57 --> 00:25:03 Yeah , and then you'll find a team's doing something that someone else is doing something very similar, perhaps.
00:25:03 --> 00:25:20 That's where you could say well, maybe I can add value here Take that off your hands and anybody else's and we'll come up with a single way of doing that that you can all use So what i'm saying is make it about them Instead of, , going in and just saying, well we're going to take this feature from you and that feature from it's about them.
00:25:20 --> 00:25:22 You're trying to help them reduce it.
00:25:22 --> 00:25:26 You said this earlier, reduce the cognitive overload on their backlog.
00:25:26 --> 00:25:30 So they can focus truly on features that they're, they're, , trying to put out.
00:25:30 --> 00:25:31 , so you take away all the.
00:25:32 --> 00:25:35 It's not really overhead, but, it can be positioned as overhead, right?
00:25:36 --> 00:25:39 , so you because it's not value adding necessarily, right?
00:25:39 --> 00:25:50 It's just necessary it's a necessary evil that they have to do these things Well, we're gonna free you up from that burden right and you and you So that's the way I would position that.
00:25:50 --> 00:25:50 Yeah.
00:25:51 --> 00:26:00 , like I think about, , my work in mobile apps earlier in my career, like the authentication was one that the platform quote platform level, that was one that we took off the teams.
00:26:00 --> 00:26:01 Like no team had to deal with authentication.
00:26:02 --> 00:26:08 And now that we're in 2024, when we're shooting this podcast, most teams don't deal with authentication anymore.
00:26:08 --> 00:26:17 Now it's like, everybody's got, either, , Octa authentication or multi leg authentication it's a standard thing now, 10, 12 years ago, it was not a standard thing.
00:26:17 --> 00:26:18 Everyone was rolling their own.
00:26:18 --> 00:26:22 Multi factor authentication that was ubiquitous was not a thing.
00:26:22 --> 00:26:27 you had to build your own it's like,, everyone uses Stripe now for payments.
00:26:28 --> 00:26:29 Stripe didn't exist.
00:26:29 --> 00:26:34 You know, 15 years ago when, so like, how are you going to take payments?
00:26:34 --> 00:26:38 Well, it was a big deal to take payments.
00:26:38 --> 00:26:44 Now that we've developed this thing, it's not a big deal anymore so that, that's the platform team kind of like, what is every team doing?
00:26:44 --> 00:26:47 That's painful for them that you could lift.
00:26:47 --> 00:26:48 Off of them.
00:26:48 --> 00:26:57 It may not be something they talk about when they get together a bunch of product managers, cross functionally across products, talking about like what is integrating.
00:26:57 --> 00:27:02 And then the platform product manager, just listening, fly on the wall, listening.
00:27:02 --> 00:27:10 Hopefully they got invited to that session, by the way, but listening and in addition to the group where they're all together, going to their individual.
00:27:11 --> 00:27:35 Sprint reviews, critically listening to what they're doing and then lifting features and talking about it and building their backlog with the other product managers and tech leads and maybe some key, , stakeholders as collected stakeholders for the platform backlog I still have this thing in the back of my mind of, maybe the individual product managers don't want to give up that feature.
00:27:35 --> 00:27:42 It's almost as if the platform product manager, but you need a strong background in.
00:27:42 --> 00:27:47 Crafting a strong vision from the ground up to say, Hey, we're going to take these features from you.
00:27:48 --> 00:27:49 Cause that's product managers.
00:27:49 --> 00:27:51 That's what they're going to hear.
00:27:51 --> 00:27:56 We're going to hear that, but you shouldn't say that regardless of the way you say it, regardless of the way you say it.
00:27:56 --> 00:27:58 We're going to take these features away from you.
00:27:58 --> 00:28:01 We're going to free you up from having to do these features.
00:28:01 --> 00:28:01 That's right.
00:28:01 --> 00:28:02 We're going to manage it.
00:28:02 --> 00:28:03 I'm sorry, very ranty.
00:28:04 --> 00:28:04 This is where I'm going.
00:28:05 --> 00:28:20 The platform product manager needs to be more experienced than the other streamlined product managers, more advanced, and they need to present a better, more cohesive systemic vision.
00:28:21 --> 00:28:25 With the features that the individual streamlined roadmaps are delivering.
00:28:26 --> 00:28:30 The only way I know how to do that is to be more advanced in.
00:28:31 --> 00:28:32 You know, that is solid.
00:28:32 --> 00:28:32 Definitely.
00:28:32 --> 00:28:34 That's definitely the case.
00:28:34 --> 00:28:42 I think that you can also use as your sidekick, the enterprise architect, because they have that systemic view, right?
00:28:42 --> 00:28:44 Of the whole platform.
00:28:44 --> 00:28:46 So they could help you with that.
00:28:46 --> 00:28:50 they could help you with, , trying to figure out the design of it.
00:28:50 --> 00:28:54 And say, yeah, this metal belongs over here, or we can standardize all of these things.
00:28:54 --> 00:28:56 Centralize, et cetera.
00:28:56 --> 00:28:58 , so yeah, you could definitely, they're your ally.
00:28:58 --> 00:28:59 Let me put it that way.
00:28:59 --> 00:29:04 We do have some other podcasts on this one as guardrails of what not to do right.
00:29:04 --> 00:29:14 arguing 1 55 weapon weaponizing standardization and, , arguing 1 52 to a lower degree, , weaponizing efficiency, weaponizing standardization.
00:29:14 --> 00:29:15 Definitely.
00:29:15 --> 00:29:20 that's a good one for guardrails in this one the platform team, one of their best tools.
00:29:20 --> 00:29:23 Is to say, what can we take that all the teams are doing individually?
00:29:23 --> 00:29:25 And they might be doing well.
00:29:25 --> 00:29:28 Let me just copy what you're doing and have this other team maintain it.
00:29:29 --> 00:29:31 As opposed to like, let me take what you're doing and revise it.
00:29:31 --> 00:29:32 Cause it sucks or whatever.
00:29:32 --> 00:29:39 So like in weaponizing in 155 weaponizing standardization, we talked about a lot of cases where the org will.
00:29:39 --> 00:29:40 Try to standardize.
00:29:40 --> 00:29:43 But what they're really doing is they're trying to centralize and take control of things.
00:29:43 --> 00:29:45 That is not what we're talking about.
00:29:45 --> 00:29:47 Authentication is a great example.
00:29:47 --> 00:29:51 Rather than you having to deal with all the edge cases.
00:29:51 --> 00:30:11 Of authentication and then whenever libraries go in and out of vogue or in and out of support or whatever, cutting over like rather than deal with all that, we'll deal with all that and all you need to do is when you need to authenticate, you just call the authentication endpoint and you know, if you call slash latest, it will always work.
00:30:12 --> 00:30:20 You're essentially offering them functionality as a service, like authentication as a service with pretty much a guarantee it's going to work.
00:30:20 --> 00:30:21 So they don't have to worry about it.
00:30:21 --> 00:30:23 They can focus on other things.
00:30:23 --> 00:30:24 Yeah, absolutely.
00:30:24 --> 00:30:26 , look, what do, what do we miss here?
00:30:26 --> 00:30:28 Well, the last one you've already incorporated are recommendations.
00:30:29 --> 00:30:31 Maybe we could talk about books.
00:30:31 --> 00:30:33 I mean, Team Topologies is the obvious one that springs to mind.
00:30:33 --> 00:30:36 Obviously, you need to go through Team Topologies.
00:30:36 --> 00:30:42 I'm trying to think of like, the new economics that like the Deming book about, , where he talks about systems like the, , shoot.
00:30:42 --> 00:30:45 What was the, , reinventing the organization.
00:30:45 --> 00:30:48 , there's a few books that talk about systems that, you know what I mean?
00:30:48 --> 00:30:51 Coming up with a systems view of things.
00:30:51 --> 00:30:53 , I can't remember the Deming podcast that we did.
00:30:53 --> 00:30:57 I think it was 181 Deming's 14 points where he talks about systems.
00:30:58 --> 00:31:08 a lot of stuff where you think about optimizing for the system rather than optimizing for an individual feature or individual product or product line or whatever, optimizing the whole rather than the whole, yeah.
00:31:08 --> 00:31:11 Like that, the product manager for a.
00:31:11 --> 00:31:20 Platform team really needs to, , take a systems view of, of everything working together, , rather than optimizing for one individual.
00:31:20 --> 00:31:29 I feel like if you want to score quick wins, yeah, you probably can optimize for an individual you know, it's a hard one to get out of though, once you're in there, right.
00:31:29 --> 00:31:33 I mean, you don't want to propagate that once you optimize for that and you get a few quick wins.
00:31:34 --> 00:31:36 Like that, that's like the path to the dark side.
00:31:36 --> 00:31:38 It's like those quick wins are easy.
00:31:38 --> 00:31:40 They're pretty easy to punch out.
00:31:40 --> 00:31:42 You don't have to coordinate with so many people.
00:31:42 --> 00:31:43 You have to make so many people happy.
00:31:43 --> 00:31:44 And you know what?
00:31:44 --> 00:31:46 Like a lot of people are happy doing that.
00:31:47 --> 00:31:52 You know, I mean, until they're not exactly, yeah, you that it's coming at you, right?
00:31:52 --> 00:31:54 It's just, you can't see it until it hits you.
00:31:54 --> 00:31:56 Yeah, absolutely agree.
00:31:56 --> 00:32:02 So, yeah, I mean, like we have a few podcasts, , there's one or two books out there with our team topologies, his main one, obviously read, read that.
00:32:02 --> 00:32:06 I definitely, know what metrics are important for at a team level.
00:32:06 --> 00:32:08 They're not really at a platform level.
00:32:08 --> 00:32:09 Yeah.
00:32:09 --> 00:32:17 I mean, the thing to do is just, if you're on a platform team, think about your offering As a service, you're basically providing services, right?
00:32:17 --> 00:32:22 That means that the people that you're providing services to, they don't have to build it from scratch.
00:32:22 --> 00:32:26 And that's got to be worth something for them, right?
00:32:26 --> 00:32:28 Cause while they're doing that, they're not doing something they should be doing.
00:32:29 --> 00:32:29 Yeah.
00:32:29 --> 00:32:42 I mean, the other thing I would say is the platform team, like the difference between the platform team and the, as a service team for me would be like the platform team almost has to cast a much wider net than any of the stream aligned teams.
00:32:42 --> 00:32:57 Definitely the as a service teams because he has a service seems to just need to service the platform teams that are using their service and they don't really care about customers or teams or anybody else outside that as a platform team, you really need to care about everything.
00:32:57 --> 00:33:02 Cause you're like, your stuff could come out of anywhere to surprise the business, to be like, Oh, surprise.
00:33:02 --> 00:33:06 This is our top priority now you almost need to be in all of the teams.
00:33:06 --> 00:33:07 Reviews.
00:33:07 --> 00:33:10 You need a window in every team's roadmap.
00:33:10 --> 00:33:13 , you need a window into where the business is going next.
00:33:14 --> 00:33:21 I would say if you're not involved in your industry conferences and stuff like that and see what the upcoming things are you need a window into technology as well.
00:33:21 --> 00:33:35 I sort of envisioned a platform team is sort of deeper in the technology than the normal PM on the surface, but , unlike a lot of the streamlined teams, I feel you should be further ahead and more involved.
00:33:35 --> 00:33:42 I see it as a more difficult job, to be honest, as any of the individual streamline teams.
00:33:42 --> 00:33:43 I concur with that.
00:33:43 --> 00:33:47 I think you need to also keep your pulse on what's going on with your competitors as well.
00:33:47 --> 00:33:49 Yeah so you're not blindsided.
00:33:49 --> 00:33:49 Yeah.
00:33:49 --> 00:33:57 Cause the impact is magnified when you get overtaken by them, it's, it's tough because , it's a product management role that requires a lot of, EQ.
00:33:58 --> 00:34:07 To understand like one of the things that we pointed out earlier was, well, I've interviewed a lot of the PMs, my peer PMs in the different programs around the business.
00:34:07 --> 00:34:10 And I found that like their teams are very overloaded and they're very stressed and whatnot.
00:34:11 --> 00:34:18 Well, that's part of your job is you're trying to de stress them by using your team.
00:34:18 --> 00:34:26 To pick features up that will kind of take the cognitive load off of the individual teams and make their day to day jobs.
00:34:26 --> 00:34:26 Exactly.
00:34:27 --> 00:34:28 That's all part of your job.
00:34:28 --> 00:34:28 Correct.
00:34:28 --> 00:34:33 And as, as part of doing that, you're basically having a magnifying effect, right?
00:34:33 --> 00:34:36 Because your team could offer something to multiple teams.
00:34:36 --> 00:34:39 So now you've got that magnifier effect, right?
00:34:39 --> 00:34:41 That's what you should be doing.
00:34:41 --> 00:34:41 Absolutely.
00:34:41 --> 00:34:44 That's a leadership role all the way up and down.
00:34:44 --> 00:34:45 Absolutely.
00:34:45 --> 00:34:45 Yeah.
00:34:45 --> 00:34:47 , well, I mean, this has been a fun podcast.
00:34:47 --> 00:34:49 hopefully, , we've answered a bunch of your questions.
00:34:49 --> 00:34:54 We got into context, obviously without naming you by name or having you on the podcast, we are.
00:34:54 --> 00:35:11 100 percent happy to have you on the podcast if you want Since we don't want to call out your specific company or whatever and be like, oh, everyone's terrible But if you still have questions feel free to, , hit us up individually in private or , as a podcast questions or angry tweets or whatever, however you want to get questions to us.
00:35:12 --> 00:35:17 And, for those of you who are not,, subscribed yet, please subscribe and,, be kind to one another.
00:35:17 --> 00:35:18 We'll see you next time.
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