AA179 - Winning Product Strategies & MVPs: Case Studies from Top Companies

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast where your press business agility coach,

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Owen Patel and Product Manager Brian Orlando argue about product management,

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_00]: leadership and business agility so you don't have to.

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Today we're talking about strategy on the Arguing Agile Podcast.

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So today on the podcast we have a guest, Nisha Patel.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Currently I'm a product manager. Yes, big claps, big claps.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I come from a background in healthcare, eventually was working at a tech company

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and then eventually I transitioned to product thanks to the community coming together and really

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_01]: helping me to achieve my dreams and picking me up and raising me up. Thank you for having me.

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Awesome, all your dreams coming true. Nisha is the organizer of the Tampa Bay product group.

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_00]: We had a session recently called Executing Product Strategies and I will be honest,

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I was a panelist and I overprepared big time.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_02]: You certainly did. I spent as much as zero time preparing for that.

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, but you are not a product manager so that would be why.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I like to live my life overprepared for every situation.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_00]: That's the life of a product manager kids.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, dread carefully.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_00]: The research I did for preparing for the panel, I wanted to bring to the podcast because

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_00]: there was so much there. We had a suggestion that every single panelist suggested which is

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_00]: write your strategy on the wall, publicize it, broadcast it, get it out there so everyone can

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_00]: see it. I was thinking about that one between podcasts about how few times if ever I've ever

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_00]: actually seen someone be like, these are our strategies.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the larger company, the larger a company, the less chance you have of seeing

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_02]: that written down somewhere, smaller companies start ups. You may see that but yeah,

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't seen that in many companies either.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was inspiration for that topic during one of the very first meetings we talked about,

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_01]: okay everyone, what do you want to see? What topics do you want to hear?

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was one that came up time like so many different times.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's one that doesn't really get talked about very often.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Like we talk about so many other agile product topics but we don't really

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_01]: hear about product strategy. So that was the inspiration behind it.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, over to you.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Why is that?

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you see Bigfoot as often as you see product strategies written down and the main reason I

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_02]: see if I had to distill it down to like one reason is because we talked about this at the

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_02]: meetup as well that cycles are getting shorter and shorter. And so if you write something

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_02]: down, it's almost like you're committing to it. And when you commit to something and time

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_02]: goes by and you haven't made it, it's very uncomfortable. So people are deliberately either

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_02]: up for skating it or they're just playing it safe. Right? They're playing it safe.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Don't write it down that way we can't be beholden to it if we don't make it.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_02]: We probably won't.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Is it I'm trying to skate out from accountability so I don't want to write it down and publicize

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_00]: it? Is that what it is?

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that is true in larger companies especially right. People are not necessarily

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_02]: looking to commit anymore. Financial statements, you'll see it in annual reports

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_02]: specifically. But remember annual report is a lagging indicator, right? It's just looking back

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's easier to say things you did as opposed to a strategy that you're aspiring to achieve.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_00]: But annual report like that's that's so last year.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Annual reports are still quite literally. It's like it's it's I mean how that's not

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_00]: enough time to adjust. What if I told you I don't want to write down a strategy because

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_00]: that locks us into a course of action and we need to be more agile? What if I use agile as a weapon

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_00]: in this discussion?

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. And so that's another thing that people do is they say well we need to be nimble.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_02]: We need to pivot quickly. So we won't write it down. But unfortunately if you don't write it

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_02]: down or at least at least you don't visualize it with your employees. How will they know where

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_02]: their North Star is? Right? How will they navigate to somewhere wherever that is that you want them

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_02]: to? They won't. But at least when they don't do that you won't get worn under the collar because

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_02]: people aren't going to tell you hey listen yeah your strategies aren't really working because

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_01]: you say what strategy? So you talk about quickly pivoting. How do you know that you're pivoting

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: in the right direction if you're not keeping that strategy in mind? So why is it that we're

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: pivoting in this direction if it's potentially not the right direction to pivot in?

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So that also is something that is basically event driven. You know something's not working

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_02]: so you pivot but to your point you don't know if the direction you're pivoting toward

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_02]: is the right way to go it's even a good thing to do or not. It's just that staying on course

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_00]: is not a good thing to do. Well I'll give you when we get into the framework. I'll come back

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_00]: to what you just asked because what you just asked if you're building your actions

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_00]: to advance your strategy every single one of those actions should be measurable in some way

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_00]: because otherwise what are you I mean what are you really doing right? Like every product

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_00]: manager on a planet has probably interfaced with this executive that's like oh I know what to build

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_00]: just do what I say they're the rhinos. Oh no is it rhino? No no I'm sorry they're the zebras.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Zebras. Yeah zero evidence but really arrogant like that's zebra that's these people they're

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_00]: super overconfident they they're like well I have intuition a lot some of the times this is

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_00]: founders when the company grows to a certain point and the company outgrows them and the

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_00]: intuition that they have is not good enough for the size and and also the this is funny this

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think about I don't think about strategy this way but strategy involving growing your org

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_00]: like an internal looking strategy I've seen that blow up in a lot of people's faces they have no

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_00]: plan for scaling they have no plan for how they're going to reorg their teams. Yeah but you

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_02]: know then again I know we're gonna come back to this as well but they may not care

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_02]: they just want to grow because when you grow to a certain level you get rewarded and once you get

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_02]: your reward you can up and leave. By your yacht. It's also a legit strategy from their own individual

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_02]: standpoint right but yeah it doesn't do the organization any good. So I have a question

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_02]: for you where is your strategy posted? Mine as in what my company strategy or my own strategy

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_02]: what are you asking me? Your team strategy? My team strategy is on a dashboard in a wiki so

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_02]: it's available to everybody they're forced to see it in a way because the wiki is the one-stop shop

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_02]: for everything. Sure and it's usually at the very top followed by some dashboards that are kind of

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_02]: aimed at leadership and then another set of dashboards that are aimed at middle management

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and finally dashboards that are for team level folks they bookmark those so they don't have to

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_02]: go through all of that every time but at certain meetings even on or off cadence we would look

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_02]: at that right we would look at that and say this is where we're going this is our north star

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_02]: whatever anyone's doing should be aligning to where we're going if you're not let's have a conversation.

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So what is your cadence at the team level? The team looks at that pretty much three four

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_02]: times a sprint with two-week sprints. Wow impressive. You have to you really do because

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean look I'll give you an example of the sort of thing that came up not too long ago

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_02]: when the same question was asked whatever you're working on is it aligned to what we're doing

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_02]: right and somebody said well I'm evaluating this new tool I think it's going to be fantastic for

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_02]: everybody but it's not up there. I don't want to shut that down that's a legit thing to do

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_02]: we didn't think about that when we wrote that up but it's the right thing to do just put it in

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_02]: the backlog let's do it properly let's account for it. I have two answers and it depends on

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_00]: the state of the company that I've been at in small companies it works a lot like what

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Ohm just said is I try to have the strategies that were engaged in I try to have them be

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_00]: somehow included in the day-to-day work that people are touching. The best example that I've

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_00]: ever implemented of making this visible is I went into the CEO's office and I said this is your

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_00]: corporate Kanban now and every card on your corporate Kanban is a strategy that we are

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_00]: engaged in doing because how many strategies can you have in the air at one point in time

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_00]: you know what I mean? No more than you have fingers. There's an upper limit depending

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_00]: on your company size but in the company size where I can walk into the CEO's office and

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_00]: we're writing this on the board now like they had an upper limit two three four strategies at the most

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_00]: right I think the book attraction says three to seven. Other teams I've been on it's in a Google

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Doc where we agreed like this is the mission of the organization this is our vision for what the

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_00]: future looks like when we accomplish the mission and then these are the main strategies that all

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_00]: the products and everything follow and it's written in a Google Doc and we revisit it once

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_00]: a year and like it's kind of you know what I mean? New people when they on board go look at

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_02]: it and that's about look at it because they don't have access so that's typically what happens I'd

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_02]: like access please you know I don't know who this person is not giving them access. And those are

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_00]: the companies that actually took the time to write down the strategies and then everybody else

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_00]: wing it you know it's either they have no strategic thinking so they don't value any of that or

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_00]: strategy is not a focus because they're wrapped up with other things making plans and doing this

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_00]: they put things in like vanity metrics they're watching so there's no time for strategy.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to unpack some of the reasons right why this happens in this podcast

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_00]: but yet the best that I've seen it done is each strategy I think that company used Jira

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_00]: but the best company that I've seen they have like I can't remember what the system calls it

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's epics or super epics in Jira I think super epics or initiatives or something

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I think anyway that's initiatives that's what they're called yeah they're called initiatives

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_00]: so they have a higher level work out in an epic it's initiative and then epics and then stories right

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_00]: so that company used the initiatives as strategies which is fine I mean look you could use anything

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_02]: sorry sorry but it gives you a single board as long as they're frequently visiting that

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_02]: right and ensuring that people are marching to that right that's fine well then now the nice

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: thing is it lined up with the teams as well so you can see these super epics or initiatives

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_00]: crossed teams because you could see all the stories that the teams had roll back up to the strategies

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_00]: so that was nice but like with that tool once you have like 200 people you're like you need

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_00]: to get another tool or Jesus or something like that well we didn't have Jesus but I did use

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_02]: another tool at a very large program to try and kind of get my arms around this we use a ha

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_02]: aha is a very commonly used tool right for this purpose you got to pay the you have to pay the

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_02]: piper aha is not cheap I believe it's somewhere around $1800 per user per year so you just have

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_02]: a few users in there fortunately to look is free to comment is free as well so that's okay

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_02]: because all those people that say they want access they get they get view access and they

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_02]: can make comments they cannot mention people and that's about all they need what you really

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_02]: need though is to get people together and say what have you got the weird business to do

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_02]: brainstorm that and create those ideas and strategies put them out there and here's the best part

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_02]: that I like and I don't work for the company but I like this part about the tool and that is

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_02]: you can publish that on an internal website so it's real time and all you have to do is share

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_02]: the URL with people and say you want our strategies bookmark this URL that's it they

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_02]: don't even have to get into the tool itself so they don't need a licensing there's none of

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_02]: that right and then the other thing is if you're suffering from that disease where you have to

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_02]: actually produce PowerPoint presentations every week or whatever you could easily do that at a

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_02]: click of a button it will spin that out into a PowerPoint presentation with your own branding

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and whatnot so you don't spend time polishing a PowerPoint which is useless as an exercise

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_02]: one of the challenges in keeping it visible is you point about a 20 person company that

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_02]: especially if they're co-located great you could put that up in the hallway but if

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_02]: you're virtual how do you do that? How do you visualize it if you're virtual?

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Well Microsoft has not allowed me to write things on the wall

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_02]: They probably will come out with a product called Microsoft Wall with Clippy included

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_02]: all I can suggest here is use tools like you know whatever you use teams or whatever

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_02]: you could create channels and that is a channel that everybody is crawled into

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's where you have to do whatever is needed with the tool set you have

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean I use wiki because it's free and it's built into Azure DevOps

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_02]: We use it for a lot of other purposes too so people are already visiting there right

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and that was part of the rationale say if you're already going there how about this

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_02]: you know and just start with an exclamation mark and it goes all the way to the top

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_01]: that's how sorting works closing question for you what is your cadence?

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Where your team or you have done that well how often have you revisited your strategy?

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Ideally ideally I'm revisiting the strategy if everything's working up

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_00]: if everything's working up through the system then whenever we have some kind of

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_00]: scaled session where all the people that are contributing to the strategy you're talking

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_00]: right I'm assuming your company has something like that on a regular basis

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_00]: it's like and my current company with the weekly is the cadence where we're reviewing

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_00]: everything and the swim lanes that we go across our products but very easily you could pivot

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_00]: the swim lanes that we go across to be the strategies and then you're not having a

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_00]: product conversation hey what problems are you solving in this product

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_00]: for leadership you're having a much higher level conversation of what strategies are

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_00]: advancing this week we don't do it that way but we very easily could do it that way

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_00]: this other company with the whiteboard out that I was talking about going to the

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_00]: CEO's office is because I didn't want to get bogged down in any one team because they had a lot

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_00]: they had some territorialism and stuff that I had to solve as a product person

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't want to get bogged down in that so we would talk at a strategy level

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and that kind of just cleared up all the oh the tech versus the customer service

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_00]: versus the this people the developers versus sales this you know all those little things it

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_00]: just clears all that up when you're like what where are we going to win next

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_02]: you know boom let's talk about that sometimes those little things aren't so little right

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_02]: feudalism is real so one of the things you can do if you have a if you have that

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_02]: board with product as a lane for example you could easily superimpose a lane on top of it

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_02]: which is the strategies that these products are fulfilling right and they're available

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_02]: to you you collapse them if you don't want to see them but with leadership you would collapse the

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_02]: product one first go with the strategy and then open up the products that are fulfilling the strategy

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_00]: that could be an option so hard pivot we may or may not be returning from a segue but I want to

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_00]: pivot us into a lot more tactical advice and for that purpose I'm going to highlight the

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Ramell from the book good strategy bad strategy I'll go find it in the editing and

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll put the picture of good strategy bad strategy and there are three there are three items that make

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_00]: up the kernel of a good strategy in that book I highly recommend you read that book I'm going to

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_00]: outline that the three components here number one is a diagnosis a clear definition of the

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_00]: challenge at hand number two is the guiding policy your overall approach to dealing with

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_00]: the challenge and number three is a set of coherent actions so this is the loose framework

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_00]: that I use when I am constructing a strategy that we're going to move forward with so I will

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I will give a diagnosis right and sometimes the diagnosis ends up being incorrect sometimes it's

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_00]: just an opinion yeah true that's why we need to measure things to find out if it's just my

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_00]: opinion exactly okay so let's start off with the diagnosis again we we actually did two back

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_00]: to back episodes a while ago like episode one oh something where we talked about mission vision

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_00]: strategies goals that kind of stuff we had the little pyramid right stormy was on that podcast

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and then the following podcast we constructed a the strategies for the podcast and we actually

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_00]: still run with those strategies most of the time sometimes we're very loose with you have to adjust

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_00]: with the arguing strategy yeah sometimes we're very loose with it but you have a diagnosis again

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_00]: you go to the doctor the doctor says you've got these symptoms I think you have strep

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_00]: based on my expertise I think you have strep and then he'll give you a guiding policy my

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_00]: guiding policy for strep is you know take take two motoring call me in the morning and keep it

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_00]: elevated that was the sure that's right I was thinking antibiotics for three months are you sure that's

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_00]: strep doc doc will say listen I'm not a very good doctor get out of my office just like an executive

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_00]: but we all can dream and then he'll give you a coherent actions this is take take take the

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_00]: medication this many milligrams this many times per day or whatever and for this amount of time

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_00]: very specific things that you can measure you know and then doctor will say did you take

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_00]: the medication and then whatever like show me your evidence and then get out of my office

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_00]: but the point here is like what is your diagnosis what is wrong with the market you know what is

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_00]: wrong what's the pain point of the customer what is the thing that you're trying to solve

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_00]: that's a diagnosis you have to have a theory I mean even if you're doing Eric Reese

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_00]: lean startup like you have a theory right and then he says okay go test the market for your

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_00]: theory so what I did was I put together the diagnosis the guiding policy set a coherent

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_00]: actions I put together for a lot of companies that are very familiar we're only lightly

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_00]: breaking the working agreement I don't like don't worry companies that I'm really going to take

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_00]: to the mat are not on this list right yeah and none of us work for those guys that's right

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_00]: this isn't a square the other thing I added to this list is I added as the first coherent

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_00]: action in the coherent action category I added what their original MVP was so again I'm mixing

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_00]: a little a sprinkle and a little lean start again any strategy that you just declare and you decide

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_00]: you want to engage in it really should have an MVP before you go off to the development team

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_00]: is you should what's a what's a strategy what's a business problem that somebody would have

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_00]: that we would try to solve to represent my strategy electronically okay I'll give you one

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_01]: so problem that I'm trying to solve is that I want to be able to as a event organizer I want

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: to be able to find spaces that will be able to host my event within capacities or within

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_01]: specifications that are predefined so if I for example need someone that has like a tech hookup

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: or maybe I want there to be a quiet space where I can have a round table discussion

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_01]: or maybe I want to be able to host an event with 30 something 40 something people and also

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: be able to project slides I want to see in my area who's able to do that I like it I want to

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_01]: see who's able to do that for free I want to be able to see who's able to do that for a cost

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and if there is a cost associated then how much are they going to charge it's it's uber for event

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_00]: organization without the wheels without what oh I mean wheels optional it's airbnb right it's airbnb

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_00]: for events right also meetup.com what the heck like how are you missing out on this segment of

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_02]: the market like if you're listening this strategy is not for free so you have to pay for this yeah

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_00]: probably because again it is closer to airbnb their model because you have to reach out and

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_00]: build that network of people willing to host their space if you want to take this event or if you

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_01]: want to take this idea and turn it into a reality go ahead and contact me at linkedin.com forward

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: slash nichep 299 and let me know how much you'd like to buy this off of me for I'll give you

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_00]: three fitty these ideas cost money so again I have a couple of these cases we're gonna just

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_00]: quickly zing through them there's no rhyme or reason to how these are up here but anyway this is

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_00]: the framework that we're going to use diagnosis guiding policy set of coherent actions all right

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_00]: so let's start off with Dropbox like Dropbox the diagnosis here is people need an easy way to

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_00]: access and sync their files across multiple devices which by the way the investors did

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_00]: not believe in they're like no way you can why do people need that if you've ever had this

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_02]: pain that you really experienced firsthand you would know why it was terrible I could

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_00]: word this diagnosis as an actual diagnosis to say like the pain point is you know I mean like

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_00]: it's super hard for people to access and sync all their files across the devices they use the most

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_00]: or whatever phone desktop whatever other devices they have iPads whatever you know I mean this is

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_00]: the pain point that users have that's the first thing we're calling out and then

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_00]: guiding policy well we're going to create a simple user friendly cloud storage solution

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_00]: when Dropbox was creating this there was no cloud storage it was not really in vogue like

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_00]: the way it is today but we're going to create some kind of user friendly solution

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_00]: that automatically syncs your files and is painless for you right that was our guiding policy well

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_00]: how are you going to do that well it is very complicated to take from all these different

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_00]: devices operating systems hardware whatever and figured out so we're going to create this video

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_02]: out of thin air magically if it could do these things you would have this problem so we're

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_00]: going to show you a video of this is the way that solution would work would this be something

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_00]: that you're interested in people looked at it and said well actually that would be pretty slick

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_00]: if I could just automatically the files I need are on every computer I sit down to use

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah this is an example of you know early on in the early stages you don't have a solution but

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_02]: where you're going after his mind share and validation of your idea that's what you're

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_02]: doing without investing anything it's just a video doesn't take long to create a video but

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_00]: again this is why if I ever did a presentation you know I mean my TED talk is you guys have

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_00]: really messed up MVP and like you need to we need to take it all the way back to the beginning

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and fix the term MVP because I can't like for years I've said I can't use the term MVP

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I have to use something else and it's ridiculous you know because MVP should just be like

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_00]: like you see up here MVP is hey that guiding policy you came up with we need to create a

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_00]: simple user friendly cloud storage solution how are you going to test that on the market

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_00]: to see if that's really what the market wants or is that just like your opinion man a lot of companies

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_02]: are falling fall of this one right so the person in charge just says this is like this is how it's

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_02]: gonna work right and this is the best thing ever since slice bread people will use it they will

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_01]: love it no validation that's the opinion right there what customer feedback or what research

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_02]: is going into this guiding policy that's a good question I mean so if they start with a video

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_02]: right you don't really have any affirmation or anything any signals from your customer except

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_02]: conceptually this would be great they haven't really thought through security for example right

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_02]: what happens when files drop halfway through does it pick up from where it left off or does it start

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_00]: all the ways from beginning again they don't think of all those things yeah I think the crux

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_00]: of what you're asking is a intuition versus evidence question it is how much of it do you

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_00]: make up based on your expert knowledge or your domain knowledge and how much of it is you go

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_00]: fishing for stuff you know we covered this a little bit on the alex podcast we did we had an

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_00]: intuition versus evidence podcast and the the takeaway at the end of that podcast spoiler the

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_00]: takeaway the end it's not really spoiled but the takeaway from that podcast was you need

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_00]: in order to break through and come up with truly unique ideas you need intuition and in

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_00]: order to get intuition you need some kind of domain expertise to a certain level okay so

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: in this example we're talking about Dropbox I want to say that Dropbox was a little bit ahead

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_01]: of their time right like when they came about they were putting together things that an idea

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_01]: that was not like it was something that was true innovation so how does that work you know

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_01]: you're an innovator I guess I'm kind of answering my own question here a little bit is like

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: you're not keeping up with the times because now when you think about cloud storage sharing

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_01]: across devices you think of OneDrive you think of Google Drive you think about these cloud

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_01]: storage solutions how do you stay on the front of innovation I think it's hard left yeah no the

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_02]: question for people listening they shouldn't construe that Dropbox is no longer innovating

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_02]: there's still a relevant player in the space right it's just that their pricing strategies are

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_02]: different now compared to other people that come in and compete on price alone like Google for example

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_02]: you can get 15 gigs of storage for free right Dropbox if I recall these to give you two gigs

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_02]: for free right and then you have to buy on a tiered level buy more space etc well they've

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Dropbox is like I actually use and pay for Dropbox because I really like the product

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and Dropbox they have Elena Verna working for Dropbox now I really like her as a product

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_00]: she's good but Dropbox I know a little bit about how they got to where they're at today and they

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_00]: expanded horizontally meaning that they went Dropbox for business and then they did Dropbox for

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_00]: home they expanded into Dropbox for like professional document writing and collaboration on documents

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and they expanded into a bunch of horizontal markets when it wasn't specifically like

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_00]: personal file sharing for B2C consumer users sure but that's probably because they thought

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_02]: that's where the biggest buck was and probably was honestly I mean individual users probably

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_02]: aren't gonna amount too much when it comes to revenue even allowed for scaling right or volume

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_02]: initially to get traction in market so that's part of it the other part of it to your question

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_02]: around innovation is they didn't stop innovating I mean they came out with the video first and

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_02]: then they had to come up with a structure that worked right cloud infrastructure that actually

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_02]: worked where you could have a folder on your local machine you could just drop files into it and it

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_02]: would automatically be synced it's pretty slick when it came when it came to it right in the

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_02]: early days I was very impressed I still use Dropbox today for work right and it is really good

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_02]: this works really well for my needs anyway but you understand the video demonstration was not

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_00]: really to like prove all the different vercles what I say so horizontal whatever it wasn't really

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_00]: to prove that like these are all different the business we can break into it was because

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_00]: the the diagnosis the investors didn't believe that was a problem so the video was to show

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_00]: the investors how easy it could be to convince the like hey I understand you're saying this is

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_00]: not a problem let me prove to you how easy it could be with this video and convince you that

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_00]: oh that is a problem and now now you're willing to give me money that's exactly that's how they

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_02]: actually that's how it banned out they got money based on showing the video right now now I say on

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_00]: the podcast all the time I say on the podcast all the time the Silicon Valley companies are a love

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_00]: story in there it's like a love story of one it's like watching a romantic comedy where one person

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_00]: falls in love with themselves so they're a little weird as examples and they won't be the last

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Silicon Valley company on here I think of MVPs is exploring a market like actual users I don't

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_00]: think of it as trying to get more money from people so it's a little weird but that's the

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_00]: drop-off example so let's move on quickly because I feel like we stayed on there a really long time

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_00]: so DoorDash there's a big demand for convenient food delivery from restaurants in your area

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_00]: basically that's their diagnosis hey why don't we let people order from restaurants and then

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_00]: we'll just bring it to them I think there's a market for that that's the diagnosis right

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_00]: the guiding policy build a platform it connects the customers with the local restaurants

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and then the delivery drivers that are in the area so connect all three of these people like

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of what you were saying is like they connect the people that want to host events with the people

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_00]: that have space that is basically just sitting idle you know and then kind of figure out the

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_00]: finances right that's a guiding policy so what was there MVP that kicked off exploring this

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_00]: exploring this guiding policy and the strategy they started with a landing page of PDF menus

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_00]: for local restaurants in one specific area and it was really simple just simply had the

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_02]: name of the restaurant and a snapshot in time of the menu that menu may have changed right that's

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_02]: okay yeah at least it's a start we're gonna create a platform called event space where people can do

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_01]: those things and meet those needs no one's meeting them they aren't I have sifted through

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: the interwebs I've tried to look at other people that have the same need that I do

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and I haven't been able to find it I mean quite honestly it's in and of itself it's a great business

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_00]: idea because the real estate market is already terrible and I would imagine that anyone that's

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_00]: stuck in real estate because they signed a contract or whatever if they can get paid even if it's

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_00]: 100 bucks or whatever they can get paid for using their facilities when none of their employees

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_00]: are there I mean why would you not every nickel and dime counts yeah that's wild more come

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah doordecks so the interesting thing about door dash is they did this in a specific local area

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_00]: first because they had that their team had to go get the menus for the local restaurant so

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_00]: that means whenever they spun up in new cities I don't know how many cities they spun up in

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_00]: until they figured out how to connect with the restaurants and people

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_00]: wanted on board but I would assume it was a lot that they had to physically go to those

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_00]: cities or hire people in those cities to be like I get menus load them on the platform

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_00]: take pictures or whatever or maybe they integrated with Yelp or something other other places that

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_00]: have pictures of menus open table right but yeah that's that's door dash so you see the MVP there

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_00]: people will actually go to this site with all the all the menus on it yeah what's in it for the

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_02]: people is choice right they can see a choice of restaurants instead of going one by one by one

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_00]: hey our friends from Airbnb here they are diagnosis there's a gap in the market for

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_00]: affordable unique accommodations during high demand events it wasn't right your house to me

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_00]: it was when there's high demand events in an area and all the hotels are all booked and we're over

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_00]: capacity we can find a gap in that connect travelers with local hosts willing to share

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_00]: their living space test the concept did MVP test the concept by offering air mattresses

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_02]: during a design conference which yeah I mean it's fascinating that they actually did that

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_01]: when you take the diagnosis and you skip the guiding policy so just just I'm with you okay yeah

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and you just connect the diagnosis to the coherent action it is absolutely bonkers so you're

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_01]: telling me that there's a gap in the market where someone's gonna sleep on an air mattress

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_01]: in my house get out of here absolutely not precisely the reaction they got when they first

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_01]: tried it I'm not going to go into a stranger's house I'm not gonna get into a stranger's car

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I was gonna say yeah I mean you bring up a good point he bring up a good point in the way that

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I like good points brought up get out of here because I'm bringing the arguing to the arguing

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_00]: agile 100% agree with you that I think about this one as a product manager just because

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I've written a diagnosis and a guiding policy and then I'm sitting down with my team to say what

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_00]: actions can we do to try this on the market my team could immediately start by saying like Brian that

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_00]: guiding policy is bananas why don't like here's two or three other guiding policies that we can do

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_00]: instead it's like congratulations ohm you have strep and you're like oh me and it's like yeah yeah

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_00]: hey take two motion and keep it elevated and you're like are you sure about that guiding

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_00]: policy how about like give me some antibiotics why don't we why don't you why don't you

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Brian did you know that maybe this is not medical advice

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_01]: that if you are if you become more active then it gets your blood flowing you'll be able to get rid

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_01]: of the infection sooner if you're talking about from a more holistic point of view then this actually

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_01]: isn't so bonkers I like where you go with this so don't go to the doctor just run around the

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_01]: block you'll be alright walk it off exactly walk it off rub some dirt in it you know a nice

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_00]: thing about what where you're going with this if we all sat around and we just hey there's a gap in

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_00]: the market for office space for organizers and we all sat around we probably can think about

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_00]: a half a dozen ways just before we even got out of this room to test if that truly is a problem

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and none of those should involve building software my challenge of putting all these together is

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_00]: every single one of these guiding policies has a test to check if there's signal that

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_00]: connecting travelers with local hosts willing to share the living space like if that really is a

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_00]: guiding policy that is the correct one because if we if we go around and we're like hey who do we know

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_00]: with like extra bedroom or a house that they're not using that would be willing to have two or

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_00]: three people sleep on air mattresses in their house that they're not using and then all of us are

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_00]: like that's crazy I'm not asking anyone you know like we would immediately shoot down this

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: guiding policy and start looking for other guiding policies it's not the technology that is necessarily

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_01]: the innovation it's the idea so how are you going to get how are you going to identify your

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_01]: customers so would you as an early employee of air b&b go up to someone and say that would you

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_01]: say that to anyone that you know personally I'd be probably a little hesitant because they'd be

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_01]: like this chick is crazy like I'm not gonna talk to her she just asked me if I could have some stranger

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_01]: come over and be in my oh no well also also yeah but also but also it's different when you wave in

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_00]: cash and like hey oh yeah hey like these these this conference in town there's this conference in

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_00]: town these people can be here for two days like if you think about a hotel the business model

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_00]: of a hotel for business like I have an idea we're gonna we're gonna buy some commercial

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_00]: real estate and we're gonna let people sleep there don't worry it's illegal but don't worry about

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_00]: it we're not digging into that part of air b&b the illegal part and we're gonna let people sleep

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_00]: there and it's real close to the conference center because we know that like there's really no amenities

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_00]: there there's nothing to do in the building so in reality people are only gonna sleep there like

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_00]: as long as I have to sleep there and then they're getting out so that that's like the pitch

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_00]: to get the first people on board or whatever probably involve that as well as like hey it's

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of money and they're really doing nothing but sleeping and taking a shower and that's it

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_00]: you know how much is that worth to you and then we can negotiate on price they probably was

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_00]: negotiating on price but I think I think they with their MVP I think they were using maybe it was

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_00]: their corporate office I don't remember it was that personal space yeah so they were the ones

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_00]: crazy enough you know I mean on all they had to do was build enough platform where people

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_00]: that were also crazy enough or or had extra real estate people who own an extra house

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and weren't using it they just have to build enough where those people would be like well

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I can get some cash like as long as it's enough to make it worth it and then it's just a matter of

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_00]: dallying it in so that's pretty much what happened I understand what you're saying like normal people

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_00]: absolutely but if they can find the right people I mean there are people out there that have

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_00]: multiple houses that just they just don't use it sure yeah absolutely so and I I

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I agree if you disconnect the actions from the diagnosis the diagnoses they sound crazy

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_00]: absolutely why would you do that though right dude I go back to our not a guiding policy no

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_00]: go back ideas as good as any other but if you go back to our earlier what we saw in the podcast

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_00]: earlier about why companies avoid strapping down to a strategy like that they are over

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_00]: confident in their own intuitions they are they don't have strategic they don't have that

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_00]: muscle of strategic thinking well where are we going to go first well well we'll see if any

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_00]: of us have some extra space in our garage that's a little crazy yeah but if we can do that then we

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_00]: can find people that have extra houses that they're just not doing anything with an oh or summer home

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_02]: in your backyard I mean any of these ideas are as good as any other tent b&b but how do you

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_01]: keep these actions and how do you take this guiding policy and how do you maintain that

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_01]: while you're executing your product strategy right as you're delivering this you know just

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_01]: just really breaking down and looking at air b&b I'm like have I stayed at air b&b is absolutely

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_01]: but looking at it like this I'm like yikes even now like air b&b is legit right this I'm like

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't I did not why have I I did not I did not put uber on this list either but I mean if

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_00]: you want to roll the uber strategy back the diagnosis there is like a lot of people are going

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_00]: from point A to point B and if they just allow the strangers to get in their car to also go with them

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_00]: halfway along their journey from A to B because they're going there anyway they can make some money

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_00]: you're gonna let strangers get in your car that's crazy it's because there's a third party

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_01]: involved that's what makes it okay it's because I'm not just gonna give you you're gonna give

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_01]: me food and I'm gonna give you money how do I know I can trust your food restaurant to do that

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_01]: it's gonna how do I know that like my checks gonna clear how do you know that I actually have money in

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_01]: my account how do you know that you're actually gonna get paid there's banks

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_01]: true innovation there's you do you go to many restaurants through your checkbook

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_00]: no you'd be like that person in public's line you're right and I'm like how much is it

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_00]: how many cents all right air b&b let's see if we can find a more crazier one Robin Hood

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_00]: more crazy there's a market for more accessible and affordable stock trading options especially

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_00]: among younger investors aka people that are mobile primary because that's that's what

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and also people that don't want to pay a commission so the guiding policy here is you

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_00]: develop a commission free mobile app very user friendly this audience is not going to go to a

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_02]: professional stock broker for example and pay the commission they are real research they know

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_02]: what they want to invest in their tech savvy right all of that so great I mean the guiding policy

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_02]: nails it I think commission free and it's an app so you don't have to go talk to anybody right do your

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_02]: research if you want or don't but you're going to use an app to do this in an easy to use way

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and also they exploited my favorite MVP in the world here's a waitlist here's some screenshots

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_00]: of what it is here's a waitlist because you don't have to do anything with a waitlist

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_00]: you're captioning everyone's emails hey let me know when developments happen what is the name

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_01]: of the the company you come up with an idea you put it in front of people you say do you want this

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and if there's enough people who are interested or enough people I know what you're talking about

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_00]: what is that Kickstarter Kickstarter that's on my list yeah absolute oh yeah Kickstarter is a

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_00]: good kickstarter is on the list sorry we would have never got to this whole list anyway so

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_00]: we probably won't get through it all here's Kickstarter so the diagnosis here is creative

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_00]: projects often struggle to find traditional funding while people interested in supporting

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_00]: innovative ideas this one's really wordy I think I think it's what it's trying to say in very

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_00]: clunky terms again this is first draft so don't let me it is that the diagnosis here is hey

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_00]: people that want to create like should be able to broadcast their idea out into the world

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and get funded by people that are interested in an idea that want to be on the ground floor

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_00]: of your your creative thing whatever that thing is yeah and that's true and and furthermore people

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_02]: that are actually willing to put money into it because they're interested they get rewarded

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_02]: because you're the early adopter so you get cheap prices right you get the cheapest price you're

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_02]: going to get but at the same time there's no guarantee the product will ever actually materialize

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah so the guiding policy here is what we want to build a platform that connects

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_00]: creative projects with potential backers and create this crowdfunding basically model

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_00]: otherwise you're not going so that's really all it is is connect connecting backers

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_02]: with greatest that's what you're doing you're selling the promise right and pretty much everybody

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_02]: on kickstart to show something that is a very rough version of it's gonna get better give us money

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_01]: to make it better I don't even know that it's so much promising as pitching right it's it's a

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_00]: very rudimentary pitch yeah yeah sometimes it's that Kickstarter in reality is all over the place

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_00]: some people develop the entire product and then basically our brand to Kickstarter

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_00]: introducing it to the market trying to build a market through Kickstarter some people start off

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_00]: with just like a screenshot or a or an explanation of what they're trying to do and they don't develop

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_00]: anything ahead of time so people use Kickstarter differently that the creators pitch the backers

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_00]: back it and then to get funding to the creators creators need like an easier way to crowdsourcer

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_02]: funding I mean that's pretty much it I think the only difference between pitching and the other is

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_02]: when you're pitching you simply say here's an idea give us some money right when you're promising

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_02]: you're saying here's what we've done so far and here's where we're going you kind of share a little

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_02]: bit of a roadmap and say by November we'll have this closer to October you say well now it's

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_02]: gonna be December so they are kind of luring you along but that's okay you know you get in

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_02]: cheap I've invested money in this in various products and some have come out great late

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_02]: some will come out nowhere and I've got my money back yeah nothing to lose so the MVP here is

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_00]: sharing project ideas via email to gauge interest from backers so like hey here's my email update

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_00]: these are all the things that you can sign on to I mean email is pretty cheap to test the market

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_00]: you know I don't know the history of Kickstarter so I don't know exactly how they built those email

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_00]: lists and stuff over time but it's just those subscriptions yeah like it's email cost nothing

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_00]: really these days and then I actually went a little deeper on Kickstarter's about they

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_00]: developed the platform to showcase and people to back it and then they implemented the reward

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_00]: based systems and other tools communicate they still they I mean that Kickstarter still has

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_00]: things that they haven't built yet I mean the people that want to release their products

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_00]: have to add backer kit to Kickstarter to actually be a distribution mechanism and a way to

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_00]: communicate whatever it's like Kickstarter is not even quite like they've done a lot of stuff

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_00]: to build they built a lot of stuff is what I'm trying to say but they still have not

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_00]: gotten their complete arms around what this diagnosis but they have an old map

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_00]: strategic roadmap sure sure it's really good all right we're gonna we'll do one or two more

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_00]: examples and then we'll cut to the end of this bucket so Zapier businesses need an easier way

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_00]: to integrate and automate their various web applications so it's a hey these steps that

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_00]: you're doing manually they need to be automated basically so their their guiding policy was to

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_00]: develop a platform that allows non-technical users to create automated workflows between

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_00]: apps and they shop that around with the MVP of a higher developer on craigslist so couple of

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_02]: keywords there in the guiding policy on highlight here non-tech users yes right you didn't have to

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_02]: know how to code and automated workflows meaning you're not doing all of that drudgery manually

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_02]: that's where the payback is right and then really interestingly the way they actually gage

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_02]: interest to your point here is just put an ad up on one of the worst platforms visually ever

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_02]: have you seen the the look of craigslist it hasn't changed in decades it's ugly but it works

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it's changed since 1995 it doesn't need to change though right it does what it does

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's it yep hey if you ever used Zapier Zapier how you say it if you ever used it the

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_02]: first time it works for you you're like how did i ever live without this and then you find 50

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_02]: other ways you can leverage it and then you go this is the best thing ever that was at least

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_02]: my experience when I used it it's only got better over the years so the last one that I want to talk

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_00]: about is Stripe which by the way I was around when Stripe debuted on the scene and I will tell you this

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_00]: was needed it was like the development teams had very few ways to actually take payment from a

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_00]: customer so developers need a simple way to implement online payments in their applications

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_00]: guiding policy create a developer friendly payment processing API that is super easy to

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_00]: integrate what they did was they took seven lines of code and they put it on Stripe's website and say

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_00]: hey our app is super easy to use copy these seven lines of code put them into your app the seven

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_00]: lines of code basically with it was the API call sure except I don't think that the actual API

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_00]: that was specified by the seven lines of code I don't think that existed it called something

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_02]: that had probably a hundred lines of code and returned back a token and they used that

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if the actual backend that worked worked I don't know if it existed when they

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_00]: did this they're like this is the call you have to make and that's it super easy they didn't develop

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_00]: the whole site but the idea was that their pitch was copy these seven lines of code put it in your

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_00]: application now you've integrated with our app and pay me the money we'll take it from here right

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_02]: exactly what a fantastic idea though think about it right in the market there was nothing

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_02]: that did that so they met a pain point and they solved it right so if I had the need

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_02]: basically process payments this is very alluring for me I call this out I wanted this as an

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_00]: example because this my company that I was at was a very early adopter of stripe because we wanted to

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_00]: break into b2c there was no good options to take payment directly from the c part yeah

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_02]: how was your experience with that company with stripe specifically it was very easy

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_00]: to I mean that there are there are problems you will run into with stripe but it's easy to

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_01]: resolve them so I'm again going off hard left but we just talked about two different ways

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_01]: to reach the customer right and they seem so non-traditional right so stripe seven lines of code

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_01]: in this case your client is in the previous example with Zapier it's on craigslist like

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_01]: that's not what would come to me like at the forefront of my mind I wouldn't say oh put

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_01]: put in a very small bit of code to gauge interest I would not say let's go to craigslist to gauge

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_01]: interest so when you say that you were your one of your previous companies was an early adopter

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_01]: of stripe how early was this in the the let me gauge interest type of phase or do you think it

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_01]: was more of when they became a little bit more established when that code actually led to something

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and not just to gauge interest but also to feed into a funnel they were founded in 2010 they were

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_00]: founded a strike was founded in 2010 oh I remember kickoff they bought that in 2011 they received

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_00]: some investment capital I think we were very close to 20 maybe 2012 but we were very early

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_00]: adopter of stripe it was the developers who found that option they were looking for an easy way to

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_01]: take payment in the application the developers found it so if I can just call that out of like you know

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_01]: in general like looping it back to agile I think that to really truly be the best product the

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_01]: best solution that you can be it really does involve bringing everyone in and having a conversation

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_01]: right so like that is such a great example of you get a group of people together and take everyone's

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_01]: considerations into account like from a developer's perspective like my tech lead will do okay well

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna do some research this that and the other thing I'll report back if my tech lead

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_01]: comes back with a oh it's seven lines of code it's something that is simple to integrate then yeah of

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_01]: course it makes sense as a how do you gauge interest that developer is your in yeah well I mean if

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_00]: this is a b2c product yeah even though it is its businesses that are the that are the consumers

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_00]: here basically you're going on a stripes site and you're signing up to whatever their tears

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_00]: or plans are to say I want to process this many transactions and they're just giving you an api

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_00]: key and then you're done you don't even need to talk to anybody until stuff starts breaking in the

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_02]: early days maybe that that my experience but after a while when they iron out those kinks right

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_02]: but let's face it there's only so many types of cards right so once they figure that out

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and everything starts to work smoothly you really have no recourse to go back and say hey this

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_00]: is working it's just gonna work but you're absolutely right the developers found an option

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and if you were at one of these companies again where you get this overconfidence

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_00]: on intuition is like oh the product manager will tell you what to do they'll talk to the tech

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_00]: lead and the tech lead will assign all the work items to the development team you'll never find

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_02]: small companies no they'll write 4 000 lines of code over like right exactly and still not get

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_01]: what these guys can do for you and that is the beauty of true collaboration of true agile you

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_01]: do what works for you okay so you as a developer what's gonna work for you what's going to make

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_01]: your life just a little bit easier these seven lines of code are me telling you what to do right

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_02]: that's a much better conversation then here's what i think we need to do go do it right

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_02]: absolutely much much better and here's the problem we're trying to solve how would you

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_02]: how would you think we can solve it and then me myself as a developer i'd go i'd find this or

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_02]: something like this and go why do all the work when we can just buy this it's cheaper it gets

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_02]: us there quicker now whether you actually go down that path or not that's not my decision

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_02]: my decision is just basically just saying yeah here's what you do you make an informed decision

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah you have budget etc that's getting into the i'm going to tell you as a product manager

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_01]: based off of this research that i've done with x amount of people in whatever departments

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_01]: i'm going to explain or translate the why to you but then you're going to tell me

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_01]: as the developer how i always say to my team you are the experts you tell me how you want to do it

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_01]: you tell me the best way to do it i will give you the shell and you tell me how you're going to

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_02]: accomplish it interesting you said why because a lot of times what i hear from product folks talking

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_02]: to developers is the what this is what we need to do go figure out how to do it and they go okay

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_02]: but if they knew why guess what they can actually think around the issue and figure out the best

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_02]: solution for the why to your point though when you have your developers or anybody else in with

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_02]: the people that really matter which is the customer that's where you get the best interactions

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_02]: because and then you have to enable and empower your developers to ask questions right they could

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_02]: ask the customers directly why do you need to do that and based on the answers they come

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_02]: with a much better fit for a solution than what was originally asked for by those very same

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_02]: customers because they didn't really think through all the options right that's where the value is

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_00]: so we talked about case studies and i hope by now we've given you enough examples to understand

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_00]: what the strategy looks like in three parts like why you need a diagnosis why you need a

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_00]: guiding policy to help you figure out how to resolve the pain point and then the actions

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_00]: you're going to take it's super easy to have nbps there's lots of companies here that are successful

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_00]: that had very low cost nbps you can have an mvp for every strategy if you have the right diagnosis

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe the guiding policy is not right well if you test it you can probably test a couple

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_00]: guiding policies this is why i want to do a podcast on the double diamond like discovered

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_00]: delivery that double diamond thing that everyone keeps showing because i see that double diamond

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and i see the people that look at that double diamond is like oh i can take the left

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_00]: that'll be somebody's job and the right side will be somebody else's job and i'm like no don't

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_00]: don't do that because if you're involving your entire team in the end to end discovery

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_00]: then they will tell you hey there's this hot new product on the market called stripe

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_00]: we don't need to write 4 000 lines of code and go off for six months to deal with transaction

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_00]: processing for payments we can just copy these seven lines of code on starpe's website

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_00]: ask them for an api key replace the stubbed out one with this one and then less than a day

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_02]: the alternative is you would spend weeks if not months negotiating contracts and all of that

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_00]: crap but in the companies where they look at the product manager and they say you manage a team

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_00]: you come up with that you know i mean like that there are companies like there's tons of companies

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and for if you're working for one of those companies right just going back to our audience

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_02]: we we have some advice for you right do we yeah we do we always have that

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_02]: that advice is keep the resume updated because you really need to do better for

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_02]: i didn't want to point out something for the audience that is not necessarily in the tech space

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_02]: pretty much everything we've gone through the model etc it really is in the tech space

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_02]: for the most part right so strategy specifically with product strategy it predates all of this stuff

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_02]: it predates the book you mentioned a couple of gentlemen that specialized in strategy

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_02]: at harvard right michael porter everybody's heard of the value chain now in various guises

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_02]: five forces so he was the guy that basically came up with all that and then a little bit later

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_02]: he partnered with a professor harvard ck prahalad is his name he just walked across the street

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_02]: right across the river right so they came up with this idea that in order to come up

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_02]: with a good strategy you have to have they had a model but they said there's things that you need

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_02]: to figure out around your own company first and then the market second why are you in business

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_02]: right so it's interesting that we talk about where is there a gap in the market and we'll try

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and exploit that the best way we can that's good these guys said why does your company exist

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_02]: what are you here to do so i wanted to just say this because people think that whatever we're

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_02]: discussing it really only pertains to technology the stripes and the dropboxes that's not true

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_02]: everything it goes beyond technology if you really dig deeper a little bit right yeah so yeah

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_01]: that's it that's my rant over i'll ask one question so let's perhaps say that i'm a product person

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_01]: any product person at a big name company that i'm just a cog in the wheel right how do i help

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_01]: to define that product strategy for my team to drive impact if you're a cog in the wheel are there

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_02]: bigger cogs above you in the machine or is your cog one of the key ones that so when you turn 50

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_02]: other cogs turn or are you turning when 50 other cogs turn this is not necessarily my scenario

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_01]: but being a previous cog in a wheel you wonder how can i be a change maker how can i drive results

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_01]: so there's someone listening right now that's a cog in a wheel what are you going to tell them

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_02]: two people listening thank you first of all for staying with us but listen if you're in

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_02]: that situation yeah both of you if you're in that situation though i would pretty much resort

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_02]: to what brian was saying earlier walk into someone's office and say this is what i'm going to do if you

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_02]: have something that you know is better i'm all ears i'm going to sit down right basically what

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_02]: i'm saying is i talked about this yesterday a bit as well guerrilla tactics right so take it

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and own it because if you don't have a seat at the table no one's going to come to you

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_02]: and knock on your virtual desk and say please come in we need you no one's going to do that

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_00]: you're saying guerrilla tactics but my brain is translating that into a bias for action

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_00]: is like you're showing you're managing up and showing your managers that you are the person

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_00]: with the bias fraction hey i see it like we seem to be engaged in this strategy is that right would

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_00]: you say that the problem in the market we're observing is this would you say that our our

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_00]: diagnosis for how we're going to handle it is to do x y z to carry out these actions and then

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_00]: those actions being x then y then z or whatever right where's that right yeah yes it is there

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_00]: like would you say that and then and then of course your your your manager at that point because let's be

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_00]: honest that the size of the organization the issue that you're detailing they don't have leaders they

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_00]: don't have they don't have leadership yeah leadership yeah leadership are like a big foot in this

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_00]: organization mythical creatures so you're saying what actions from this guiding policy right would

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_00]: you say that you want to measure like give me the actions you want to measure then what am

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_00]: i being measured on if i'm a cog in the wheel it just carries out these actions and i don't

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_00]: get to say in the guiding policy or the solution space and i'm being measured on these things so

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_00]: the book is uh playing to win how strategy really works age you laughly roger martin and they they

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_00]: basically boil strategy down like they even have a simpler model than i have i think it's a little

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_00]: too simple for me but they say where to play and how to win you have to put those two things

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_00]: together if you're a product manager or again the cog in the wheel is far more difficult

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_00]: for someone else to determine where to play and then they say well now you have to win

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_00]: where i told you you have to play so they're they're telling you like you're rolling on to the baseball

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_00]: field and you got a football in your hand you're like where i gotta play like this is not even

[00:56:25] [SPEAKER_00]: conducive to the materials i came in football pads what's happening here but they're telling you

[00:56:29] [SPEAKER_00]: if you have no say in that you're already starting behind i understand where you're going

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_00]: there are a lot of people out there that they don't get a say in the problem space they

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_00]: don't even say in the solution space they just measured by the output output output we're going

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_00]: to measure by output i agree with you that this is way too simplistic first of all baby steps is my

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_00]: answer is that walk back and go to your manager and be like this seems to be the strategy

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_00]: that we're employed in do we agree on that and try to reconstruct the strategy what we did in

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_00]: like the first 15 minutes of the park is where he said they're either overconfident or on

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_00]: their intuition you know again i know all the customers problems or they simply have no

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_00]: strategic thinking i've been with a lot of people in software development that they go from

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_01]: feature to feature to feature they have no strategic thinking i will say that as a previous cog

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and a previous wheel that if you are working alongside a decision maker or working under

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_01]: a decision maker that not necessarily see your long-term vision i in my disc type i'm an influencer

[00:57:37] [SPEAKER_01]: so my i will try to make a connection with someone so if that's not the person that's

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_01]: directly my manager i also have the opportunity to get to leadership to translate a strategy that

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe you're the person that's working right alongside you doesn't have the full appreciation for

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_01]: if you are trying to be a change maker if you're trying to be a disruptor you have an idea

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_01]: something that you're passionate about that you really believe in and you have the data to back

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_01]: that up then go to bat for yourself find the people that are on your team to back you up it's

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_01]: something that's going to create waves but if it's the right group of people if it's the right

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_01]: organization then maybe it might be something to consider one of the groups that you could

[00:58:43] [SPEAKER_02]: enlist people that you can put your arm around in that grouping would be your customer because when

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_02]: you go to your manager leader whomever you have a lot more credibility when somebody in your grouping

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_02]: happens to be a paying customer right so you could do that right it may have been done in

[00:59:02] [SPEAKER_02]: places not saying where you went but so when a customer comes in and says that people are going

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_02]: to sit up and listen otherwise they're going to say you're a product manager you have a product to

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_02]: manage i'm busy right and they're going to shut you down that's what typically happens especially

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_02]: in the case where you don't have leaders you have managers and if they're lucky they have

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_02]: leaders but if they're not they have managers right so you just can't get through that whole

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_02]: structure thing the hierarchy we would talk about the dual operating system all of that

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_02]: stuff reality is people listen to customers enlist a customer who has those pains that they're

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_02]: experiencing and say potentially we might have a solution but i cannot promise will you come in

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_02]: with me right and if you get them with you hey it doesn't matter if it's a manager or a leader

[00:59:48] [SPEAKER_02]: you're gonna get airtime with that person and that's the biggest thing you can get so i'm

[00:59:53] [SPEAKER_00]: going to say today on that front i guess we're done then so if you like we recorded for

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_00]: a very long time this podcast we have probably going to be longer than our normal podcast but

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_00]: i again i feel we could have gone another 45 minutes because i have a lot of stuff i want to

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_00]: have a second and maybe a third podcast on this topic we said we wanted to be a lot more tactical

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_00]: about how you create these strategies and who you involve in that okay so that we'll put that

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_00]: along we'll put that aside and that'll be a separate podcast but i also want to have a

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_00]: companion podcast this will probably be a quick like 34 five minute podcast about how to spot

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_00]: that your company is lacking in strategies by observing what your company is doing instead

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_00]: of advancing one of these strategies because i feel there's a lot of things

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_00]: that companies do if you've ever been in a company where you work for someone that says

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_00]: okay we need to you need to go off for like a month and come up with all the requirements

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_00]: of what they want wait a minute do i really need to do that i've been in project management

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_00]: focus organizations that that's what they feel they feel that is going to advance company

[01:00:51] [SPEAKER_00]: i'm like you're just making plans look what are you you know so i think there are two

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_00]: companion podcasts in different directions like how to spot that your company is kind of off track

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_00]: with strategies and the other one is how to really tactically do getting everyone on the same page

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_00]: of strategies i wanted to dig into the alignment that that you are throwing out but i don't know

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_00]: if it's part of i think it might be part of the how to actually create the strategy podcast

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_00]: so i'll leave it for that i'll leave my pushback for that one so with that nisha thanks for being

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_02]: here ohm wrap us up all right so if you're still with us no thank you thank you for being with us

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_02]: first of all thank you all for staying with us both of you let us know what else you'd like us to talk

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_02]: about in the comments below oh please don't forget to like and subscribe if you like this podcast

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_02]: share it with a friend exactly we may have more podcasts around the same topic last but not least

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_02]: if you're in that organization where you really have nobody listened to your voice

[01:01:45] [SPEAKER_02]: be yourself keep that resume updated