AA177 - What is a Platform Team? Roles, Responsibilities & Common Mistakes

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome to the Arguing Agile Podcast, where AirPrize Business Agility Coach, Ohm Patel and

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Product Manager Brian Orlando argue about Product Management, Leadership and Business Agility

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_02]: so you don't have to.

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And my story goes like this.

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I was at a workplace one time.

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_02]: The product leadership at the workplace had a great idea.

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_02]: They say, hey, why don't we come up with all these reusable features and we'll shove

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_02]: them into a platform and we'll have a Platform Team develop the platform.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said that's a great idea.

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_02]: We should have a platform team.

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_02]: We got a lot of reusable features.

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And they said that's great.

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And then this platform team will be in charge of that feature and that platform team will

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_02]: be in charge of that feature.

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, wait, wait, wait, it sounds like you don't really understand what a platform

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_02]: is or what a platform team does.

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So why don't we slow down a second there?

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, hang on kid, get out of my office.

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And that was the end of that conversation.

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So it got me thinking a platform team is a real thing.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_02]: They maintain a platform which also is a real thing.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And I figured there's too much here to not bring to a podcast to talk about.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. So I think we should define what a platform is and what a platform team is,

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_00]: what they do, et cetera.

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. So let's just start with that.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I knew that that's how you wanted to start this podcast.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So I brought the handy-dandy Team Topologies book.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if this is going to be backwards on the video or not.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not really sure.

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_02]: But I brought Team Topologies, Organizing Teams for Fast Flow by

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Manuel Pias and the other guy.

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Matthew Skelton.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_02]: He won't return any of my angry tweets.

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to start off with the Team Topologies definition of a platform team.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_02]: It says the purpose of a platform team is to enable stream aligned teams to

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_02]: deliver work with substantial autonomy.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_02]: The Streamaligned team maintains full ownership of building, running and

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_02]: fixing their application and production.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_02]: The platform team provides internal services to reduce the cognitive load

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_02]: that would be required from Streamaligned teams to develop these underlying

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_02]: services.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_02]: This definition of quote platform is aligned with Evan Botcher's definition of a

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_02]: digital platform, which I will give to you right now.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_02]: A digital platform is a foundation of self-service APIs, tools, services,

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_02]: knowledge and support, which are arranged as a compelling internal product.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Autonomous delivery teams can make use of the platform to deliver

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_02]: product features at a higher pace with reduced coordination.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And the reference that they gave in the book, if you want to go look it up

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_02]: yourself, it's Botcher.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_02]: What I talk about when I talk about platforms, there's an article online,

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_02]: but that's the definition of a platform team.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_02]: But I want to stop here before I go deeper into the book or deeper

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_02]: into more concepts just to say, I could completely understand how

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_02]: people misunderstand the purpose of a platform team because in the

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Team Topologies way of thinking you have this platform team, which is

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_02]: working on this thing that's shared between all the teams.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So the thing that's meant to enable all the Streamaligned teams and

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll just draw a more terminology from the book on you right now.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_02]: The Streamaligned teams are what people normally think of as the feature teams

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_02]: or the fully formed, durable product teams or the more decagent product teams.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Right? Those are Streamaligned teams.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think of Streamaligned teams as there's funding and streams of work

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and features that basically end user customer value that is derived

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_02]: from what the Streamaligned teams produce.

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's an interesting kind of take on it because platform teams

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_00]: in and of themselves don't produce anything that is customer facing

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_00]: necessarily, right?

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Potentially, yes.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_02]: If we're talking about what a platform team does from the book and just

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_02]: again from my experience because I'm a salt and pepper and then it's

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_02]: up to you to read the book and figure out which one's salt and which

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_02]: one's pepper.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_02]: But from my experience, the platform team focuses on providing

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_02]: the platform as a product that is their product.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_02]: They probably have a product manager.

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_02]: They probably have development team.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_02]: They probably stay together for a long time and that is their product.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So the platform team is going to interface with all the rest of the

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Streamaligned teams to say, where are you going and what pieces can we

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_02]: take into our roadmap to make available to everyone that will ease

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_02]: or maybe even not ease everyone's cognitive load or maybe just

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_02]: propel us to the future faster.

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It could be either or right.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But for example, IDEM, SSO, whatever authentication you use,

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_02]: you'll call this particular piece of code that the platform

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_02]: team allows you to do and then you don't have to worry about authentication.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a good example.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I think as people can relate to that.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Other things for the platform team, you just heard me talk about self serve

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_02]: that there is an emphasis that everything is self serve and easily usable.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So self serve, self documented or at least we don't put out features

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_02]: that people can't understand how to use by themselves.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they should be able to consume everything without having

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_00]: that dependency backed on the team.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, a big goal of the team has to be reducing cognitive load.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_02]: If what we're doing doesn't reduce cognitive load on the rest of the

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_02]: development teams, we're kind of missing the mark as a platform team.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Or we might be in one of those positions where we we're really

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_02]: a stream aligned team producing features and now we're doing our stuff for end

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: users, but then we're also doing a little bit of platform stuff.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So we're actually increasing our own cognitive load.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe we'll get into that whole like what happens when you're faking

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_02]: yourself out and you think you're a platform team, but you're really

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_02]: a stream aligned team.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe we'll talk about that in different section.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and then there's a little bit of standardization.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Like again, you're talking to the people who did standardization is evil as a

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_02]: podcast, you know, weaponizing standardization.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_02]: That was a part.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_02]: But but there is a bit of standardization here.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, if you cannot put any thought into authentication or user management,

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_02]: user roles, you know, when Ohm on boards, he has access to feature

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_02]: A, B and C. But when Brian comes onto the platform, he only has access

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_02]: to A and B because he didn't pay for feature C.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_02]: The point is some other team can create that whole role based access

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_02]: mechanism.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And now you don't have to worry about it.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_02]: All you do is you plug in your code to this RBAC system and then it's

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_02]: all taken care of for you.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_02]: You don't have to think about it.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So there's this element of what the platform team produces being reusable

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_00]: by other teams.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And then of course, just like a normal product team, this platform

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_02]: team would be looking to continuously improve the experience of the platform.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_00]: But it is their product.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, it follows the product lifecycle.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_02]: There are some effective behaviors of platform teams that are outlined in the

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_02]: book that are very good.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And also we again, like I said in the opening, we rolled back to the

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_02]: article that this section references titled What I Talk About When I Talk

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_02]: About Platforms and there's some good callouts in this one about what

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_02]: makes a platform compelling that are almost near the end of the

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_02]: document.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_02]: But to quote from the book, let's start with the good behaviors

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_02]: of platform team from the book.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_02]: The mission of platform team is to provide the underlying internal

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_02]: services required for streamline teams to deliver higher level services

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_02]: or functionalities, thus reducing their cognitive load.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_02]: We already talked about that.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Also see our podcast on cognitive load and says what kinds of

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_02]: behaviors or outcomes do we expect to see in an effective platform team?

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_02]: A platform team uses strong collaboration with streamline

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_02]: teams to understand their needs.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's fantastic because I mean, look, if that didn't happen,

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I would say all bets are off.

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Streamline teams have specific needs.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_00]: If they aren't understood by the platform team, how can they deliver a

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_00]: product that satisfies streamline?

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, let me start right away with the first thing that people might be

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_02]: thinking about when they're thinking about platform team.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_02]: They'll say, well, these are all the people that are spinning up my

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_02]: environment.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So I created a ticket in my ALM or when I create a ticket and, you

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_02]: know, GERA Service Management, that, you know, hey, go create an

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_02]: environment for this or go create a whatever or go DevOps team.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_02]: For example, DevOps when they're a completely separate team.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Let me spin up a ticket to send this release to the next environment.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So those are not platform teams.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Those are not platform teams.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_02]: A strong collaboration with streamline teams.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_02]: You don't need a strong collaboration with any team to just,

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_02]: hey, when's the next ticket coming in?

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you're working on the burger line.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_02]: You're just going to take the next ticket and do exactly what it says.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, make the burger in a certain number of minutes.

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_02]: You're probably incented by the number of tickets or the amount of time

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_02]: it takes. That is not a platform team.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Nope. That's right.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there is no product there.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. First of all, those skills for the most part should be

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_00]: available on the streamline team so they don't have to go to another team.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_00]: For example, DevOps.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Those skills should be present on the team.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So his second point in the book, although they should be numbered.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Manuel Pais and the other guy.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_02]: They should be numbered.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_02]: A platform team relies on fast prototyping techniques and involves

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_02]: streamlined team members for fast feedback on what works and what does not.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So a lot of people might read this bullpoint and say, like,

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't quite understand exactly what you're implying with that bullpoint.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I know exactly what coming from a environment where we worked on mobile

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_02]: applications, a lot of the time when you implement a new feature on a mobile

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_02]: application, you have to create a corresponding API endpoint or extend

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_02]: an existing endpoint or what something like that.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_02]: There are there is service side work that has to be done to extend

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_02]: mobile functionality. To me, this is exactly what I'm talking about.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, we'll we'll mock up the endpoint and we'll mock up the response.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And it won't be a real whatever you send to the API, it will send you back

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_02]: 200 success always, which is actually some APIs in production.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, 201.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But but yeah, mocking up the response API is just because like you can just

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_02]: copy the shell of an API, throw it out there under whatever endpoint

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: name you want, throw it into your dev environment and point your

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_02]: mobile devices at it just to test functionality.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_02]: That's very fast.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_02]: He's talking about setting it up, deploying it, testing it on your

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_02]: phone all in less than a day.

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Easily, easily.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I agree.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I agree.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And the other point is if you're developing a substantive API, you don't

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_00]: necessarily have to wait till you get it all done.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_00]: You can just simply say here's the shell and just develop a little bit

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and just mock out the rest, stub it out, right?

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Put a stub in there.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And then over time, you can develop more and more of it and reduce

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_00]: the number of stubs.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_02]: If I had a nickel for every time that we stubbed out a response to

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_02]: stubbed out a response because like the underlying table structure

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_02]: that was going to return whatever wasn't even ready, didn't mean

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_02]: exist.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'd have a bunch of nickels.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So the next item halfway through a platform team has a strong

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_02]: focus on usability and reliability for the services treating the

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_02]: platform as a product and regularly assesses if the services

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_02]: are still fit for purpose and usable.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So they're looking at all the end points they have against

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_02]: sticking with mobile application.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_02]: You have a library of APIs and end points self documenting through

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Swagger or whatever.

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_02]: They're constantly looking at the end points.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_02]: They're constantly looking at metrics, looking at what's being used.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: They're looking to simplify what's there.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you do that when you have strong product management.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the hard part of what you're doing.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And part of that is also just basically improving it.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So getting rid of some tech debt in there.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, really we're talking about treating the whole thing as a

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_00]: product.

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what we're talking about.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Improving it over time.

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Platform team leads by example, using the services they

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_02]: provide internally when applicable, partnering with

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_02]: streamline teams and enabling teams and consuming lower level

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_02]: platforms owned by other platform teams whenever possible.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_02]: That's interesting.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_00]: That is hard in real life though.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Very yes.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_00]: It is interesting that they actually spell it out like that.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad that they do that.

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So you've built a lower level platform or in my experience,

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_02]: more likely you've built a lower level platform mobile

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_02]: function feature.

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_02]: You've built something that could be a platform feature.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And we're saying, hey, that should join the platform.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Put it back over here.

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_02]: If I ever had any of the offices book on the podcast, I

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_02]: was specifically asking about this bullpoint because it

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_02]: could be the topic of the whole podcast by itself.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Like the politics of telling the truth.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: How do you go about doing that?

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I meant.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_00]: It's hard in practice because you're essentially saying to

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_00]: somebody, hey, give me that work because it doesn't

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_00]: belong to you.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_00]: It belongs over here.

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And then of course, like you said politics and all the.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a whole really interesting discussion because if you are

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_02]: working in a 12 15 20 person company, everyone will understand.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, your team did something that lets us win.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Merge it with the platform teams and we all all over team

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_02]: to win and we all win the whole company wins.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_02]: What's the point of being here?

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_02]: The company wins.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the point of being right company of 1000 people.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what the upper limit is, but now everyone's

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_02]: drawn borders around teams and they're unsented differently

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and they have met.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you're going to steal my feature and you're still

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_02]: hierarchies and fifths everywhere.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: A platform team understands that adoption of internal new

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_02]: services like new technologies is not immediate, but instead

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_02]: evolves along an adoption curve from the original underlying

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_02]: article.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought it's interesting to go to the original underlying

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_02]: article because sometimes there are nuggets of wisdom that

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_02]: are not easily digestible in the book that are in the

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_02]: original document, which we found.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_02]: There are quite a few in here.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So this article is on martinfowler.com.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I'm showing right now.

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_02]: All right.

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm showing the article on the main screen.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_02]: You're right there.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_02]: There you are.

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_02]: There it is.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And then what makes a platform compelling?

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's walk through these.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Some of these might be a rehash from what's in the book.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Platform is self service for the overwhelming majority of

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_02]: use cases that is pretty clearly defined.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_00]: There's no overhead on the platform team in order to

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_00]: consume the service.

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_00]: It's self serving.

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_00]: It's available in its entirety.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Digestible as is.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_02]: If you think about the Streamalon team, the team producing

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_02]: features, you might have to go to them to figure out they

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_02]: might not have documentation for their API.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_02]: They're the only ones using their API.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So it may be a pain if you use your API that you

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_02]: might only be able to use their service by SSHing into

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_02]: their segment of the network.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_02]: But there may be it may be gated off from the

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_02]: network.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_02]: The point here is you don't have to talk to anybody.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_02]: There is a system in place to self serve to use these

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_02]: features.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the idea.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the difference here between a platform team and

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_02]: everything else.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Platform is composable containing discrete services that

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_02]: can be used independently.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I think platform does not force an inflexible way of

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_02]: working on the delivery team.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Inflexible way of working.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of a little bit vague there, but I think

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_00]: what they mean is you shouldn't have to develop other

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_00]: things in order to use the platform.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_00]: It should just be make a call right?

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's usable.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I was I worked on a system once where you had to it

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_02]: didn't give you back the API that you interacted

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_02]: with only gave you basically only gave you one table.

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_02]: The API is basically loosely followed the table

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_02]: structure and the table structure was very independent

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_02]: logistics company.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_02]: One driver could drive from multiple companies.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So basically you could pull the companies and you

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_02]: could pull the drivers, but you couldn't pull the

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_02]: drivers for the company of the companies for the

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_02]: drivers.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Using the API you had to go to developers to figure

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_02]: out.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I go to the driver ID and then I get the drivers

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_02]: ID from the driver thing, but I have to know the

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_02]: driver I'm looking at.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Then I go to the company thing and I have to

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_02]: reference the driver in the company.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, like it should have been built for the

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_02]: business operation of saying I'm going to give

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_02]: you the driver and you're going to give me

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_02]: back the companies the driver has worked for

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_02]: or is currently working for if there's a

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_02]: permission problem or something like that.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but it wasn't built that way.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_02]: It was built where you had to keep calling

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_02]: over and over anyway.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I've seen those before.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_02]: These are the things that streamlined teams do

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_02]: that a platform team would say, well, how can we

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_02]: make this accessible to everybody?

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't see it in this list, but I think it's

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of implied.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Reusability of what the platform team is

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_00]: delivering, right?

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_00]: That is key.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So it shouldn't be one and done, right?

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so platform to the fourth bullet point,

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_02]: but platform is quick and cheap to start

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_02]: using with easy on ramp, AKA quick start guides,

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_02]: documentation code samples.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I was talking about Swagger before, but you

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_02]: really can use whatever you want.

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_02]: The point is, again, I don't need to talk to

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_02]: anyone.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_02]: All the documentation should be self-contained.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I should be able to test this out and see it

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_02]: working before the end of the day.

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And that really is the point here.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Other points he has in this list.

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Platform has a rich internal user community for

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_02]: sharing.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_02]: If all your of your developers on all of

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_02]: your teams are using features, then internally

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_02]: you have a you have a rich internal community

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_02]: who ends up being your stakeholders in

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_02]: product management.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's if you want to be a developer

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_02]: advocate at that point, advocating for tools

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_02]: to help and speed along developers processes

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and whatnot.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_02]: There you go.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_00]: That's the thing today, a developer advocate.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's code for getting lunch all day.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_02]: But I mean, other than that, the platform is

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_02]: secure and compliant by default and a

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_02]: platform is up to date.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Again, both things you get when proper

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_02]: product management is engaged in maintaining

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_02]: a solution, no matter what it is.

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, most of these bullets really, you

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_00]: can talk to them in that vein from a

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_00]: product lens as opposed to something else.

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_00]: This one and done type of thing.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So Bosher says that a platform should be

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_00]: compelling to use.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And all of those points we raised earlier

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_00]: are what makes a platform compelling to

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_00]: use.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So up until this point in the podcast, we

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_02]: talked about platform teams.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_02]: We talked about what they are.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So I lobbied for this to be a podcast,

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_02]: not because of anything we talked about so

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_02]: far.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I lobbied for the be a podcast because

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I had this understanding of what

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: platform teams are.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_02]: They really help to move things forward

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and they really helped to the grease

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_02]: to the accelerator.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Those ball bearings, they just move things

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_02]: along faster.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02]: They keep the friction to a low level

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_02]: between teams.

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I brought this up because there was

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_02]: confusion about what a platform team

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_02]: was.

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Say, hey, maybe this team just does all

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_02]: our features that are everyone's

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_02]: asking for.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, no, that's a streamline

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_02]: team.

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And they're like, get out.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02]: But then they were like, what is a

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_02]: streamline team?

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, well, read this book,

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Team Topologies by Manuel Pias and the

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_02]: other guy.

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And they're like,

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Brian, I'm not an executive because I

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_02]: read books.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Get out of my office.

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_02]: We were talking about, hey, I need my

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_02]: new environment promoted or whatever.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_02]: We already talked about confusing a

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_02]: DevOps team or platform.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, first of all, the confusion

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_00]: right is rampant out there.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's very common.

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, if you were to pull people,

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_00]: you're going to find that as the most

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_00]: common things.

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_00]: People do get this confused a lot.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So DevOps was one example that we

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_00]: used earlier.

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_00]: There are others.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I was DevOps team is very similar

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_02]: to, but it could be a little bit

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_02]: different than an infrastructure team.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people might read into an

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_02]: infrastructure team and say, well,

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_02]: that's just basically a platform

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_02]: team.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I think they're conflating the term

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_00]: infrastructure with the term platform.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Not from a team perspective, but just

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_00]: the words themselves.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Infrastructure is standing up a

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_00]: platform.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_00]: That's where I think the confusion

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_00]: may stem from.

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I will give you the other one that

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_02]: is commonly confused here, which is

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_02]: my favorite topic and the topic of

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_02]: a very recent podcast we did.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Share Services.

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to keep all the DBAs over

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_02]: here and I'll give them to you only

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_02]: when you scream loud enough.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm going to keep all the

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_02]: architects over here in the ivory

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_02]: tower and I'll give them to you only

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_02]: when, you know, only only on the

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_02]: first light on the fifth day at

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_02]: dawn.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Look to the east.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Helmsgate is where a lot of people

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_00]: are just standing around getting

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_00]: confused with platform teams.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_02]: We also talked about we sort of

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_02]: implied what we didn't talk

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_02]: directly about support teams.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we talked about DevOps

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_02]: as a support team, which kind of

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_02]: like most people deployed DevOps

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of like I think about a

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_02]: support team of like you're right

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_02]: at ticket.

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_02]: You don't really know who's on the

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_02]: other side.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, when they're going to pick it

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_00]: up, create all these artificial

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_00]: handoffs and dependencies or

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_00]: whatever.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_02]: None of those are platform teams

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and in fact none of those are

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_02]: streamlined teams either what we

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_02]: just talked about.

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_02]: That's that's just chaos.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_02]: That's that's like when people

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_02]: tell me they're doing Combon

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm like what's your

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_02]: whip limit and what's your show

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_02]: me your flow rate and show and

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_02]: they're like what are you talking

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_02]: about crazy person get out of

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_02]: here.

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_00]: They're not even doing hand on

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_00]: right.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:19:14] Yeah.

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_02]: This kind of confusion like it has

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of bad consequences.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, definitely.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of a lot of damage can be

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_00]: done as a result.

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So let's talk about the effects

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_00]: of the confusion.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So the first of all, if you

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_02]: think that you're going to have

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_02]: a platform team but you don't

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_02]: have this product management

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_02]: aspect, this strong product

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_02]: management, I think it's harder

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_02]: to maintain a platform team

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_02]: than it is to maintain a

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_02]: streamlined team.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_02]: That'll be my arguing agile

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_02]: challenge to throw out in the

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_02]: podcast in a typical streamlined

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_02]: team.

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_02]: You have one product or maybe

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_02]: one feature of a larger

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_02]: platform or whatever.

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_02]: A platform meaning website,

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_02]: multi-function website.

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm a product manager and

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just servicing one feature.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So my team, my streamlined

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: team, I have goals, right?

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm trying to do things to

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_02]: benefit my users.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the platform product

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_02]: manager has to be way more

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_02]: experienced and way more,

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, in the weeds.

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Like they definitely have to be

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_02]: going to all my sprint reviews

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and looking at my roadmap

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_02]: every week.

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they have to be

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_02]: working twice as hard as I

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_00]: do. They have to be like

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_00]: trapeze artists.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I'm saying.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. So the biggest difference

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_00]: here is a streamlined team

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_00]: takes their feed or input

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_00]: from their customers, right?

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas for the platform team,

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_00]: their customers vary.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_00]: That they could be multiple

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_00]: streamlined teams and the

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: inputs you get from those teams

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_00]: may not be coherent.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_00]: They may not be concise

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and they may not be aligned

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_00]: in the same way.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_00]: They could be competing in

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_00]: some cases.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So that product manager

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_00]: he's got or she's got their

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_00]: work cut out, right?

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_00]: They have to be experienced.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_00]: They have to be a ruthless

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_00]: prioritizer to figure out

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_00]: what's needed when by whom.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_00]: What's the impact of shuffling

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_00]: the schedule in a certain way?

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_00]: It requires very delicate

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_00]: sort of dancing on hot coals

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_00]: basically, right?

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I agree with that.

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I think they've got their

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_00]: work cut out.

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_00]: They have to really do a good

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_00]: job or they end up like

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_00]: most of these teams,

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_00]: which is they do a poor job

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_00]: at pretty much most things,

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_00]: right and muddle through,

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_00]: right?

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, by default,

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_02]: even in the team topologies,

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_02]: hopefully you'll read it.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Even in the team topologies

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_02]: definition, the concept

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_02]: of even having a platform

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_02]: team exists is they're supposed

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_02]: to reduce cognitive load

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_02]: for the rest of the.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_02]: But I want to challenge that.

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Do they reduce cognitive load

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_02]: or do they just take

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_02]: cognitive load onto the

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_02]: platform team product

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_02]: manager?

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, they transfer

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_00]: cognitive load from

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_00]: right streamlined team to

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_00]: themselves.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So in a way, they reduce

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_00]: cognitive load on the stream

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_00]: aligned team, right?

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Because they're taking it away

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_00]: from them.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_00]: All of that if it's done well,

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_00]: if it's done in the right way,

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00]: if it's not, I feel like

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_00]: the balance goes the other way

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and they increase cognitive

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_00]: load on the streamline

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_00]: team, which is the worst

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_00]: thing they should be doing.

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And they themselves either

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_00]: don't really have any notion

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_00]: of that.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_00]: They just move to another team

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_00]: like another.

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_00]: They moved to serve

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_00]: another streamline team

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_00]: or they increase cognitive

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_00]: load on themselves too, right?

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Which is the worst.

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_00]: That's like the lose, lose

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_00]: situation.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I have seen that in practice,

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_00]: especially in a certain scale

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_00]: framework where they talk

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_00]: about this stuff and people

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_00]: misinterpret it and then

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_00]: they misapply it.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_00]: They install the concept.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't really get it.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_02]: If you want to go there now,

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm 100% willing to go there

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_02]: now. I mean, the main thing

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_02]: that I see people sabotaging

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_02]: themselves with platform

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_02]: team concepts

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_02]: is rather than them

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_02]: being an independent team

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_02]: that delivers reasonable

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_02]: features for all the streamline

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_02]: teams. They become this

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_02]: bottleneck dependency

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_02]: assessing dependencies to all

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_02]: the streamline teams like, oh,

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_02]: the platform team is going to

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_02]: single sign on or roll

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_02]: based access, for example.

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, this team is going to do

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_02]: roll based access and

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_02]: we're going to do it for

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_02]: your application, but we're

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_02]: going to do it at stage and

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe rolled out where

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_02]: your application is going to

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_02]: be one of the last to get

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_02]: rolled into roll based access.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And we have to do

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_02]: whatever before we do your app.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So now you now you have a

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_02]: dependency on us.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So you can't do anything, any

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_02]: features that you want to do

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_02]: that depend on roll based access

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_02]: until we've done whatever

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_00]: that is very, very true.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_00]: They become a predecessor team.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_02]: If you're waiting on the

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_02]: platform team to knock out

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_02]: certain things and you're

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_02]: dependent on them to

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_02]: create features, you really

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_02]: have to take a step back

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and really think for a second

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_02]: thinking critically, by the way,

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_02]: future podcasts I haven't put

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_02]: in the list yet.

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But when you introduce

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_02]: dependencies and your platform

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_02]: team starts producing

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_02]: dependencies at that point,

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_02]: like I'm out.

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_02]: That's not a platform team at

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_02]: that point.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Clearly, I agree 100 percent.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, if that is happening, you

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_00]: already on the slippery slope

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_00]: down.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So another one that we

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_02]: are talking about is the lack

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_02]: of a dedicated platform

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_02]: team dedicated to enabling

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_02]: all the teams platform team.

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And then you say, well, we

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_02]: have a platform, but all the

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_02]: streamlined teams kind of

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_02]: contraire all the teams.

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I won't even use terminology

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_02]: from the team typology book.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_02]: In the event where you don't

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_02]: have a proper and dedicated

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_02]: platform team and all your

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_02]: streamlined teams are trying to

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_02]: like throw features up into

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_02]: the cloud to be available.

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_02]: This ends up in a lack of

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_02]: cohesion and chaos.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_00]: For sure.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_00]: To the detriment of everybody.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I think so.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And like what you end up

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_02]: getting out of this one of,

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_02]: well, we're all trying to share

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_02]: a platform.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_02]: We can all share a platform team.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_02]: You'll end up actually getting

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_02]: a lack of agility.

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_02]: You'll end up with a lack of

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_02]: business agility because all

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_02]: those features that everyone

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_02]: starts to depend on,

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_02]: developed by different teams

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_02]: when they need to be enhanced

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_02]: or extended or whatever,

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_02]: maintained.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_02]: You have to go back to that team

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_00]: which may not be around at

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_00]: that point.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Or in the same form,

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_00]: they may not have that

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_00]: particular element in their

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_00]: prioritization list.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Right?

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, well, yeah, you've

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_00]: come to us to enhance this,

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_00]: but we're working on something

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_00]: more important.

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_02]: The mobile library of APIs

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I was talking about before

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_02]: that we were creating.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It did work like this.

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So you went to the V1 APIs

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_02]: that were designed by these people,

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_02]: right?

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_02]: That had these limitations.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_02]: But if you wanted to extend

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_02]: the functionality, we couldn't

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_02]: decommission the V1 APIs

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_02]: for a variety of reasons.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Some of which there were some

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_02]: legacy clients on it that

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_02]: couldn't work on different

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_02]: technologies.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, we ended up basically

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_02]: rewriting and creating a V2 API

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_02]: that did everything the same,

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_02]: all the same business

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_02]: functionality that V1 API did.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_02]: But we could maintain it

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_02]: because we wrote it.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_02]: We became our own platform

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_02]: team writing a successor

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_02]: technology to the old functionality

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_02]: that was still there in production

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_02]: that people could still and it

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_02]: couldn't be removed.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was such a nightmare.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So that you're describing a team?

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_00]: What if you have multiple teams

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_00]: doing that?

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_02]: That's why it was a multiple

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_02]: teams that put that up.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Originally, that's how we got

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_02]: here to this nightmare situation

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_02]: where now your developers

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_02]: because remember, we're DevOps

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_02]: because remember, we fired all of

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_02]: our network engineers

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and all those people that were

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_02]: that would help with the blue

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_02]: screens of death and all that

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of stuff at orchestration

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_02]: at scale.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_02]: We got rid of them because our

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_02]: cloud provider told us, we'll take

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_02]: care of it for you, bro.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. So and then since DevOps

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_02]: is about making our developers do

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_02]: it all and buying our yachts

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and saving the money.

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. Wow.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow. That's how we got here.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Speaking of some optimal resource

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_02]: allocation, let's talk about

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_02]: resources that should be dedicated

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_02]: to streamline work might get

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_02]: diverted to platform

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_02]: work slowing down product

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_02]: development.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_00]: We just talked about that in

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_00]: your example, right?

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Sure. Of the mobile situation.

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So during the time when your

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_00]: streamlined team was taking on

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_00]: platform work, they were not

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_00]: servicing the customer the way

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_02]: they should have.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_02]: No, you were right with the

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_02]: first statement when they were

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_02]: doing that work, they were not

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_02]: thinking of the customer at all.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_00]: At all. Exactly.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_00]: With the passage of time,

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_00]: you're now getting further and

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_00]: further away.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So Brian, the business leader,

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_02]: the person trying to make a

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_02]: profit for the business so we

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_02]: don't have to shut all the

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_02]: lights off and chain the doors

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_02]: on the data center and fire

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_02]: all the employees like I, the

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_02]: person feeling the pressure of

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_02]: keeping the business running day

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_02]: to day.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I need the streamlined

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_02]: teams focused on producing

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_02]: customer value for those

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_02]: customers that stream services

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and platform team can help

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_02]: with the back of the house

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_02]: stuff. Let the platform team

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_02]: do platform team stuff.

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. That's why we got a

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_02]: product manager.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_02]: That's why we got developers

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_02]: they're focused on internal

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_02]: customers.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_02]: They're there.

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what their roadmap

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_02]: comes from and all that kind

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_02]: of stuff.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_02]: But I can't take my foot off

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_02]: the pedal for the external

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_02]: paying external customers.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_00]: They're the ones keeping the

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_00]: lights on and getting everybody

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_00]: paid.

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I absolutely agree with

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_00]: that.

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's a delicate balance.

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes streamlined teams

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_00]: may feel like it's quicker for

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_00]: them to just do it, right?

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Then to have to depend on a

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_00]: platform team to do it.

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But then that begets the

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_00]: behavior you keep doing that.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_00]: You do more of it and you

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_00]: get further away from the

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_02]: customer in the world where

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_02]: what we talked about earlier on

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_02]: the podcast we talked about

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_02]: what happens if I develop a

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02]: feature on a streamlined team

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and the platform and we demo

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_02]: it we go through a different

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_02]: review, right?

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And the product manager for the

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_02]: platform team is there and says,

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_02]: hey, that's a great feature.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Why don't we make that available

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_02]: to everyone?

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Why don't we take that API as

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_02]: is and we just promote it and

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_02]: make it available up in the

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_02]: platform and we push it out to

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_02]: everyone?

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And you're like, OK, I don't

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_02]: have a problem with that.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_00]: That should be welcome if they

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_00]: say, hey, let's just

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_00]: share this out.

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sure.

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not how I can help.

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Again, the team topologies

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_02]: has more than just the types

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_02]: of teams in it.

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_02]: It has the collaboration modes

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_02]: between teams, one of which

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_02]: is actual collaborating team

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_02]: to team.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, like we're going to sit

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_02]: together and figure out how to

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_02]: do this collaborating.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't happen all the time.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not 100 percent of the time,

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_02]: but a few members of your team

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_02]: might bounce into my planning

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and help plan with us.

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So in the situation where you

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_02]: come to my review and you're

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_02]: like, hey, this API is cool.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Why don't your team come to

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_02]: my next planning session?

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Come to my next refinement

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_02]: or whatever the system I'm

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_02]: using is.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And we'd like to talk about

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_02]: how we could roll this feature

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_02]: up into the platform.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Like why don't you collaborate

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_02]: with us, the platform team

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_02]: to figure out how to make your

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_02]: new service or your new offering

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_02]: that's from the Streamline team

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and promote it into a platform

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_02]: feature.

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a deliberate communication

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_00]: channel, right?

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So you set that up as a formal

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_00]: thing, right?

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Come to our reviews, come to

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_00]: our planning sessions,

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_00]: refinements, whatever it is,

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_00]: as opposed to somebody else

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_00]: much like Lee just saying,

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_00]: well, that might be a good idea.

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_00]: You're not going to get a whole

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_00]: lot of credibility there

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_00]: because everybody else is already

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_00]: running in a certain direction.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, here's the three

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_02]: the three modes right here is

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_02]: collaboration, X as a service

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and facilitation.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not talking about facilitating

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_02]: an interaction because I don't

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_02]: need other people to do something

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_02]: for me.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not talking about as a

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_02]: service as a service would be

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_02]: where we the platform team

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_02]: are just going to put a wrapper

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_02]: on your API and we're just

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_02]: going to call that.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_02]: That's not what I'm talking

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_02]: about.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm talking about collaboration.

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, hey, your API is

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_02]: great.

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_02]: We the platform team

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_02]: are going to take it and we're

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_02]: going to make it available to

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_02]: everybody.

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_00]: They may have to dress it up a

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_00]: little before they do that.

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_00]: They likely will.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Which they own.

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we talked about it

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_02]: we talked about the platform

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_02]: being reliable and having easy

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_02]: documentation.

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_02]: So yes, the platform team

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_02]: probably will need to sit down,

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_02]: go through your API, make sure

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_02]: the documentation works.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_02]: They know their audience.

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So they probably need the

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_02]: documentation to be at a certain

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_02]: spec.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe the API doesn't respond

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_02]: certain is a lot.

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, all of that stuff that they

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_00]: can consider for the wider

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_00]: audience.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Let the team that does that

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_02]: on a regular basis, let them

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_02]: deal with how to ship it

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_02]: to a wider audience.

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_02]: It should be built in.

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's a few other lower

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_02]: like lower ranking things

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_02]: that got pushed down to the

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_02]: bottom.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I was talking about scalability is

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_02]: one of them.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_02]: The platform team obviously

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_02]: should have like scalability,

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_02]: performance, that kind of stuff

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_02]: should be like a cost of doing

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_02]: business to this type of team.

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_02]: It shouldn't be extra for them

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_02]: to deal with it.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of times I've been on

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_02]: teams where like, oh,

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_02]: performance and scalability, we

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_02]: have to do specific tests for

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_02]: them.

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes those tests get

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_02]: cut when we're doing, especially

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_02]: when we're doing MVP.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_02]: We don't even talk about them

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_02]: like, hey, we're in MVP mode.

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Why bother what happens when

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_02]: 20,000 concurrent users are

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_02]: using the mobile app at the

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_02]: same time?

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Like we don't even bother with

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_02]: that because we're just trying

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_02]: to get something off the ground

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_02]: or through the product market

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_02]: fit.

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_02]: But the platform team

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_02]: probably will just handle this

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_02]: as normal cost of doing

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_02]: business.

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_00]: They should.

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_00]: They should do it that way

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_00]: because otherwise what's

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_00]: going to happen is you'll

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_00]: have a cost of delay, right?

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_00]: When you try and scale up

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and it doesn't stand upright

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and you kind of shore it up.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_00]: They're still going to get

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_00]: involved at that point.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So they should be looking at

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_00]: it from that perspective.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I think this whole lens of

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_00]: looking at it saying it is

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_00]: built for a customer or

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_00]: a purpose, but we're a

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_00]: platform team.

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_00]: We need to make sure it services

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_00]: everybody.

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_00]: What does that mean?

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_00]: What else do we have to do to

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_00]: it so that it can be used,

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_00]: consumed standalone as is

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_00]: by everybody?

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_00]: That's the dressing up quote

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_00]: unquote that I was talking about.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_00]: They are experts at it.

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_00]: They should do that.

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_02]: The last thing that was on the

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_02]: list was missed opportunities

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_02]: for optimization.

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_02]: The idea that like if your

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_02]: streamlined teams are just

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of doing this and

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_02]: dealing with it, you know,

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_02]: hey, we're all kind of

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_02]: contributing to this platform.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Nebulously and there's no one

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_02]: person's job to figure out what

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_02]: works, whatever.

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_02]: What are they not doing in the

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_02]: time when they're trying to quote

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_02]: figure it out internally?

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_00]: There is that.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And there's also the other side

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_00]: of it, which is you're really

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_00]: building a Franken monster

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_00]: because everybody's doing it

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_00]: their way as opposed to doing

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_00]: it a standard way that a

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_00]: platform team would do.

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So we talked about platform

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_02]: teams.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel we've covered a lot

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_02]: of ground very quickly in this

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_02]: bucket as well.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Platform teams.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_02]: But the book does say it gives

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_02]: a case study or two in the

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_02]: book. It's very good around

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_02]: page 92 is when it starts.

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_02]: It does talk about a good

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_02]: platform team being quote just

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_02]: big enough, just big enough

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_02]: because we didn't talk anything

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_02]: about how large this

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_02]: platform theme is how many

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_02]: how many platform teams is

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_02]: needed. The teams apologies

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_02]: book. There it is again.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_02]: It does give some numbers about

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_02]: ratios.

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Very useful.

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Streamline teams.

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's very useful.

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_02]: So I encourage you to look

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_02]: through the book.

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a good conversation

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_02]: starter or if you haven't

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_02]: thought about this as a good

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_02]: thought provoking piece of

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_02]: material for you.

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_02]: But the point of the podcast

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_02]: here was, hey, this platform

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_02]: team can be reducing cognitive

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_02]: load from all of the teams

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_02]: that contribute to it or

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_02]: that it helps if done well

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and also if done as a product

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_02]: as a normal product team.

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_02]: This is not some back of the

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_02]: house IT type of thing.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_02]: This is not some like

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_02]: engineering only type of

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_02]: thing that like your

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_02]: engineering manager does in

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_02]: their spare time or whatever

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_02]: is a full product management

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_02]: type of thing.

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Just because they're servicing

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_02]: internal users doesn't mean

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_02]: they're any less important.

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd argue the opposite, right?

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Because they're really

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_00]: they're really the linchpin.

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, they're very important,

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd say.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, absolutely.

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_00]: If you've worked on platform teams,

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_00]: we'd like to hear from you.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Let us know.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_01]: That's me.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_01]: That's me.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_01]: You're hearing from me right now.

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I worked on a platform team.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd like to hear from all the

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_00]: brains.

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no.

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have any other topics

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_00]: you'd like to talk about,

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_00]: let us know and subscribe

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and like.

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_02]: If you like this podcast,

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_02]: consider sharing with someone who

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_02]: you think might like it as

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_02]: well.